Thank you for providing some background. I found it very insightful into your methods of thought and what you consider evidence. (I had to google pedagogy, I don’t know what to make of “perceptive pedagogy”.)
It’s not a term where you will learn that much online.
In the beginning Danis Bois started out teaching Fasciatherapy. After a while he came to the conclusion that the New Agey people are too closemined and he wanted to try the scientific community. He got a Phd in pedagogy and became professor in somatic-psychoeducation and perceptual psycho-education at the Universidade Moderna in Lisbon, Portugal. As a result he added a new aspect to his teachings. More recently, as his knowledge progressed he used the new term of perceptive pedagogy.
English isn’t the main language but French and the French base term is pédagogie. The scope of the term in French and in German is a bit different then the scope of the English word pedagogy and in the university time the translation was education as in somatic-psychoeducation.
And you are happy to accept that statement? That muscles, the bodily tissues that change the relative positioning of different parts of the body, don’t affect the position of the body (i.e. posture)?
Posture it’s where the body naturaly without effort. For a muscle to hold something in a specific position it has to fire constantly which costs energy. It makes sense for the body to save that energy by using fascia to hold the posture.
It’s also worth noting here that I did pay a serious price for receiving physiotherapy after Schrott for my scolioses (e.g. the goal is posture correction). It trained into my body reflexes that when the muscle tonus falls below a certain point my body tenses up. The cost of that was an inability to fully relax.
It was quite an effort and required an ability to intervene in quite basic processes to get rid of most of that stuff.
You haven’t noticed the skulls around the idea of muscles driving posture.
Have you done any independent research? Fact checking? Thought about it for yourself? Or are you relying on the opinions of others (however great you feel their experience/knowledge/credentials are)?
The same somatic-psychoeducation comes about from it being a paradigm about how to learn from the experience out of the moment. Valuing embodied knowledge instead of abstract knowledge in generally true accross different somatic paradigms and that’s why it’s hard to acquire state of the art knowledge in the field by reading. It’s also why a lot of knowledge isn’t written down as a lot of people don’t value abstract knowledge.
This isn’t physiotherapy where people have a textbook that tells them what to do and then do it. Coincidently that’s also the reason why the physiotherapy textbooks are rubbish. It’s how you can find something that’s for you interesting that you haven’t read in any textbook about physiotherapy.
The 1-on-1 anatomy thing wasn’t about transfering intellectual knowledge it was about feeling the entities in the body of another person (so in some sense it was 1-on-1-on-1)
A simple yes or no will do at this point.
The point I was making is that I thought about all the main muscles and how they work multiple times in the last five years.
Thinking through how muscles work is nothing really new. The physiotherapy might not really do it regularly and rather learn abstract knowledge and that’s why you didn’t find the ideas when you looked there but that work has been done elsewhere.
The issue is that the body is very complex and different processes interplay with another.
Posture it’s where the body naturaly without effort. For a muscle to hold something in a specific position it has to fire constantly which costs energy. It makes sense for the body to save that energy by using fascia to hold the posture.
This is an issue of definitions then. I agree that it is the connective tissue system that provides passive support for the body, minimising muscular effort. I also believe it is the location of ‘physical restrictions’ that cause tension, alter positioning and restrict range of movement.
My definition of posture: The position of the body—all of it, at any time.
(I checked a few sources for a definition of posture. Lots of options out there, pretty much saying what I am calling posture and several mentioning the role of muscles.)
I’m not advocating attempts to get muscles to hold a specific position—in any shape or form. Think gentle movement and relaxation …
Working with the ‘5 main muscles of movement’ and consciously connecting with them provides a lot of sensory feedback about the relative positioning of the torso, head and limbs. Whether it be using 5 midline markers, the linea alba or Base-Line muscles (pelvic floor + rectus abdominis) as the starting reference for positioning (whatever works for an individual). This sensory feedback provides the information needed to work towards a full range of natural movement and a body that is balanced and aligned—where all the parts of the body in the correct relative positioning and free to move, including the myofascial meridians.
Working with the ‘5 main muscles of movement’ and consciously connecting with them provides a lot of sensory feedback about the relative positioning of the torso, head and limbs.
While that claim is true, it’s also not useful as there are a lot of different ways to get sensory feedback.
Take a posture idea like “A simple way to adjust your body into a better posture is to imagine a string attached to the top of your head, towards the back. ”
It seems reasonable for a lot of people. We are at a point where Alexander Technique teachers say “You have inaccurate stereotypes of us if you think we would advocate a bad idea like that.”
Given your idea of how posture works, would you also argue it’s a bad idea and that your idea is very different. If so how do you think your idea is different?
Yes, there are a lot of ways to get sensory feedback. I listed some to increase awareness of the relative positioning of the midline anatomy here.
imagine a string attached to the top of your head, towards the back. ”
The “imagine a string” example is great—if it works for an individual and they engage the ‘right’ muscles to improve posture. It didn’t for me, my body was too restricted and misaligned, my ‘myalgia of imbalance’ too advanced for imagining a string to be of any help.
To take the string idea further, think of the linea alba and nuchal & supraspinous ligaments as part of this string. To straighten the string the main muscles are the rectus abdominis and trapezius muscles. The “attached to the top of your head, towards the back” I’d replace with the external occipital protuberance.
Also, for FWIW, while I don’t have ChristianKI’s level of education in movement, I am an experienced mediator, have done a reasonable amount of work with body scans and some work with tuning the motor cortex and three years of pretty serious contact improv dancing prior to lockdown. I think my proprioception is likely better than average, altho I’m not super confident in that, nor do I have a good sense if it’s 60th or 90th percentile.
I watched a few videos and contact improv looks great. (Full disclosure I watched the videos x2 speed I’ve little patience watching most stuff). For people in a good enough physical condition, and relaxed enough to go with it, I can see it being beneficial and a lot of fun. (5 years ago I would have hated the idea because back then movement = pain, pain, pain and I couldn’t have let go to move) It looks like free-flowing movement, guided instinctively by the body rather than the brain trying to control and direct. Support is being provided which allows increased movement (I achieve similar things by legs hanging off the bed, leaning over arm of chair, using the kitchen worktop as a bar, swinging from posts...) Working towards a full range of natural movement means moving through all the positions possible, the “more awkward” is easier when support is available and the ‘support’ is also moving which adds more randomness and further increase range of movement. I find a similar, gentle, effect moving around in water and letting my limbs float around but if I get the opportunity I will try contact improv.
Now seems a good time to have a minor rant about our modern flat earth..… Walking (especially barefoot) over uneven terrain flexes and stretches the whole of the body in a way that shoes and flat ground just don’t allow.
I will take some time to have a good read of bewelltuned. Are there particular bits that resonate with you? For now, pulling this quotation:
By repeating certain movements and positions over and over again (e.g. during sitting work), we involuntarily strengthen connections between movements and muscles that don’t make much sense lumped together.
This fits with my distorted ‘body map in the mind’ that sends motor commands to the ‘wrong muscles’, adding to imbalance and misalignment.
What do you experience when you are focused on your body?
(body scanning? I don’t know much about the methods involved)
How would you describe your sense of proprioception?
My ‘conscious proprioception’ skills were pretty much at zero when I started and it’s been a revelation actively experiencing the sensory feedback from by body. Starting with focus on my pelvic floor and rectus abdominis ‘Base-Line’ muscles from where movement originates and using my midline anatomy as the reference for positioning of the rest of my body.
Active engagement of the Base-Line muscles creates a positive feedback loop, increasing awareness of :
Voluntary activation of muscles.
The body map in the mind
Proprioceptive feedback that is compared to the map. Seeing the sparkles. The basis of chakras and Qi?
Now I’m aware of my body in a way I never was before. I was always very clumsy…
It’s not a term where you will learn that much online.
In the beginning Danis Bois started out teaching Fasciatherapy. After a while he came to the conclusion that the New Agey people are too closemined and he wanted to try the scientific community. He got a Phd in pedagogy and became professor in somatic-psychoeducation and perceptual psycho-education at the Universidade Moderna in Lisbon, Portugal. As a result he added a new aspect to his teachings. More recently, as his knowledge progressed he used the new term of perceptive pedagogy.
English isn’t the main language but French and the French base term is pédagogie. The scope of the term in French and in German is a bit different then the scope of the English word pedagogy and in the university time the translation was education as in somatic-psychoeducation.
http://fasciatherapie.org/international/index.php/fasciatherapy-dbm/danis-bois is one public biography of him that gives a bit of an overview over a part of the work and the part that interfaces directly with anatomy.
Posture it’s where the body naturaly without effort. For a muscle to hold something in a specific position it has to fire constantly which costs energy. It makes sense for the body to save that energy by using fascia to hold the posture.
It’s also worth noting here that I did pay a serious price for receiving physiotherapy after Schrott for my scolioses (e.g. the goal is posture correction). It trained into my body reflexes that when the muscle tonus falls below a certain point my body tenses up. The cost of that was an inability to fully relax.
It was quite an effort and required an ability to intervene in quite basic processes to get rid of most of that stuff.
You haven’t noticed the skulls around the idea of muscles driving posture.
The same somatic-psychoeducation comes about from it being a paradigm about how to learn from the experience out of the moment. Valuing embodied knowledge instead of abstract knowledge in generally true accross different somatic paradigms and that’s why it’s hard to acquire state of the art knowledge in the field by reading. It’s also why a lot of knowledge isn’t written down as a lot of people don’t value abstract knowledge.
This isn’t physiotherapy where people have a textbook that tells them what to do and then do it. Coincidently that’s also the reason why the physiotherapy textbooks are rubbish. It’s how you can find something that’s for you interesting that you haven’t read in any textbook about physiotherapy.
The 1-on-1 anatomy thing wasn’t about transfering intellectual knowledge it was about feeling the entities in the body of another person (so in some sense it was 1-on-1-on-1)
The point I was making is that I thought about all the main muscles and how they work multiple times in the last five years.
Thinking through how muscles work is nothing really new. The physiotherapy might not really do it regularly and rather learn abstract knowledge and that’s why you didn’t find the ideas when you looked there but that work has been done elsewhere.
The issue is that the body is very complex and different processes interplay with another.
This is an issue of definitions then. I agree that it is the connective tissue system that provides passive support for the body, minimising muscular effort. I also believe it is the location of ‘physical restrictions’ that cause tension, alter positioning and restrict range of movement.
My definition of posture: The position of the body—all of it, at any time.
(I checked a few sources for a definition of posture. Lots of options out there, pretty much saying what I am calling posture and several mentioning the role of muscles.)
I’m not advocating attempts to get muscles to hold a specific position—in any shape or form. Think gentle movement and relaxation …
Working with the ‘5 main muscles of movement’ and consciously connecting with them provides a lot of sensory feedback about the relative positioning of the torso, head and limbs. Whether it be using 5 midline markers, the linea alba or Base-Line muscles (pelvic floor + rectus abdominis) as the starting reference for positioning (whatever works for an individual). This sensory feedback provides the information needed to work towards a full range of natural movement and a body that is balanced and aligned—where all the parts of the body in the correct relative positioning and free to move, including the myofascial meridians.
While that claim is true, it’s also not useful as there are a lot of different ways to get sensory feedback.
Take a posture idea like “A simple way to adjust your body into a better posture is to imagine a string attached to the top of your head, towards the back. ”
It seems reasonable for a lot of people. We are at a point where Alexander Technique teachers say “You have inaccurate stereotypes of us if you think we would advocate a bad idea like that.”
Given your idea of how posture works, would you also argue it’s a bad idea and that your idea is very different. If so how do you think your idea is different?
Yes, there are a lot of ways to get sensory feedback. I listed some to increase awareness of the relative positioning of the midline anatomy here.
The “imagine a string” example is great—if it works for an individual and they engage the ‘right’ muscles to improve posture. It didn’t for me, my body was too restricted and misaligned, my ‘myalgia of imbalance’ too advanced for imagining a string to be of any help.
To take the string idea further, think of the linea alba and nuchal & supraspinous ligaments as part of this string. To straighten the string the main muscles are the rectus abdominis and trapezius muscles. The “attached to the top of your head, towards the back” I’d replace with the external occipital protuberance.
Also, for FWIW, while I don’t have ChristianKI’s level of education in movement, I am an experienced mediator, have done a reasonable amount of work with body scans and some work with tuning the motor cortex and three years of pretty serious contact improv dancing prior to lockdown. I think my proprioception is likely better than average, altho I’m not super confident in that, nor do I have a good sense if it’s 60th or 90th percentile.
I watched a few videos and contact improv looks great. (Full disclosure I watched the videos x2 speed I’ve little patience watching most stuff). For people in a good enough physical condition, and relaxed enough to go with it, I can see it being beneficial and a lot of fun. (5 years ago I would have hated the idea because back then movement = pain, pain, pain and I couldn’t have let go to move) It looks like free-flowing movement, guided instinctively by the body rather than the brain trying to control and direct. Support is being provided which allows increased movement (I achieve similar things by legs hanging off the bed, leaning over arm of chair, using the kitchen worktop as a bar, swinging from posts...) Working towards a full range of natural movement means moving through all the positions possible, the “more awkward” is easier when support is available and the ‘support’ is also moving which adds more randomness and further increase range of movement. I find a similar, gentle, effect moving around in water and letting my limbs float around but if I get the opportunity I will try contact improv.
Now seems a good time to have a minor rant about our modern flat earth..… Walking (especially barefoot) over uneven terrain flexes and stretches the whole of the body in a way that shoes and flat ground just don’t allow.
I will take some time to have a good read of bewelltuned. Are there particular bits that resonate with you? For now, pulling this quotation:
This fits with my distorted ‘body map in the mind’ that sends motor commands to the ‘wrong muscles’, adding to imbalance and misalignment.
What do you experience when you are focused on your body?
(body scanning? I don’t know much about the methods involved)
How would you describe your sense of proprioception?
My ‘conscious proprioception’ skills were pretty much at zero when I started and it’s been a revelation actively experiencing the sensory feedback from by body. Starting with focus on my pelvic floor and rectus abdominis ‘Base-Line’ muscles from where movement originates and using my midline anatomy as the reference for positioning of the rest of my body.
Active engagement of the Base-Line muscles creates a positive feedback loop, increasing awareness of :
Voluntary activation of muscles.
The body map in the mind
Proprioceptive feedback that is compared to the map. Seeing the sparkles. The basis of chakras and Qi?
Now I’m aware of my body in a way I never was before. I was always very clumsy…