I’m not at all a Kantian—I’m quite decidedly a rule utilitarian, and in that vein, I think you would have more fulfilling relationships if you would just be yourself. And that’s just counting the utility function from your side, not hers. She would undoubtedly have a higher utility function if you were (more) honest.
That being said, my entire perception of your character is based solely on your one paragraph, which set off a large number of negative stereotypes I have about the male gender. I sincerely hope I have a misconception of how you act.
Hard to sum up my character quickly. I certainly feel like an open, honest, genuine person. I’m also quite happily ‘myself’. Trying to make relationships work any other way would be weird. Indeed, my communication with the ‘awesome poly girl’ is probably far more open and direct than is the communication in most relationships. And people in meat-space generally seem to like me.
I certainly feel like an open, honest, genuine person. I’m also quite happily ‘myself’.
Well, as I said, I’m not exactly an expert on your character. But what you described in that section sounds more to me like a pick up artist, more along the lines of Barney Stinson. How would you interpret it if you read what you wrote from the perspective of an outsider and that was all you knew about their character?
my communication with the ‘awesome poly girl’ is probably far more open and direct than is the communication in most relationships
Well I wouldn’t necessarily call that a high standard. ;-) But as I indicated, I am massively cynical about the male gender (OK, fine, I’m cynical about everyone, not just men...).
Which part gives you the Barney Stinson vibe? Drinking liquid courage before talking to girls? Telling them directly I think they’re cute and would like to grab a coffee with them sometime? Not talking about politics?
I’ll try to take you though my feelings as I read the article: (But Barney Stinson was, of course, an exercise in hyperbole—I just love HIMYM)
I started out thinking I would really, really like the article and relate to your experiences. It’s always made me sad when exes can’t maintain some form of relationship, and I’ve always managed to in the past, and try to encourage others to as well.
“Aha! It’s not that women prefer jerks to nice guys, but they prefer confident, ambitious men to pushovers.”
I think that was the first line that bothered me, largely because it was a stereotype, and that I know many, many women for whom it is not true. Secondarily, it bothered me because it seemed to imply that you should act confident even if you are not in order to attract women, which I disagree with on ethical principle.
The “act this way to get laid” vibe continued for me in the “Use Science” section. This is what I was thinking as I read it.
Politics, religion, math, and programming are basically never the right subject matter when flirting.
No! If you like talking about these things, power to you, and if the person to whom you’re talking is put off by this, then it’s better to learn that now, as opposed to later.
Keep up the emotional momentum. Don’t stay in the same stage of the conversation (rapport, storytelling, self-disclosure, etc.) for very long.
Same as above—if you really enjoy telling stories and she enjoys listening to them, what’s the harm? Let conversion flow naturally, don’t force it places because of certain prescribed rules.
Almost every gesture or line is improved by adding a big smile.
This didn’t really bother me. I’m from the south—smiling is polite, and I try to smile at people—it makes me happy, it makes them happy, and as a rule utilitarian, I can’t be opposed to that. But I am opposed to smiling at a girl to make her feel comfortable for the sole purpose of sleeping with her, which is what it came across as, to me, even if you didn’t mean it.
’Hi. I’ve gotta run, but I think you’re cute so we should grab a coffee sometime” totally works when the girl is already attracted because my body language, fashion, and other signals have been optimized.
This is fine by me. Well, saying it is. If you think a girl’s cute, tell her. As I’ve said, I think honesty is always the best policy. But worrying about whether or not your other signals are “optimized” makes it come across as just another gimmick to me.
People rarely notice an abrupt change of subject if you say “Yeah, it’s just like when...” and then say something completely unrelated.
This is what made me the most angry, because it’s actively and intentionally lying about something. You know that it’s not just like something, yet you’re seemingly encouraging saying this just so people will have comfortable conversations with you. If you can’t have a comfortable conversation without lying to create transitions, you’re probably not compatible enough for a relationship, and you should stop wasting your time.
Ultimately, I think there is one rule to relationships: Be yourself. If you’re not compatible with someone, you’ll both find that out earlier rather than later. Except under highly contrived situations, I don’t think you can ever convince me that complete and total honesty is not the best policy, and I see most of what you suggest as good social strategies to simply be masks you put on yourself.
At first i had the same feelings about the article you did.
But then i remembered what my life-coach taught me: “All behaviours start out as “gimmicks”, after some time of training they go from gimmick to part of your natural behaviour and lose their gimmickness”
This was the best lesson i ever learned as refusing to use gimmicks has put me at a serious disadvantage to those people whole naturally learned about the gimmick when they where little children.
Like luke, using gimmicks has been the best thing to happen for my work and private life. (also people who know that im gimmicking appreciate the effort i put into bettering our relationships and actively help me)
All behaviours start out as “gimmicks”, after some time of training they go from gimmick to part of your natural behaviour and lose their gimmickness
One can easily construct examples of behaviour for which this is not true. The easiest (and most absurd) examples would be instinctive—breathing, eating, etc. So it is clear that not all behaviours start out at gimmicks.
But is it, as a rule, generally true? I still think not. Did your pursuit of rationality start out as a gimmick? Mine certainly did not. I don’t know anything about you beyond that (at least, presumably I know that, since you’re on this site) so it’s hard to come up with further examples. But I’ll go ahead and make some safe generalizations. Did you learn mathematics or physics by gimmicks? What about the most recent project at work? Did you complete that project by use of gimmicks?
Perhaps I am an idealist. Well, not perhaps. I am an idealist. But my reaction, upon noticing that the world (and especially the business world) operates by gimmickry is not to participate in it, and perpetuate the continuation of the system, but to oppose it in whatever manner I can.
there are some instinctive functions, but those are mostly limited to basic survival. The examples of breathing and eating are 2 things that most adults are doing incorrectly. To learn proper breathing you will have to apply a gimmick until your body and minds learns how to breath properly and you dont give it anymore consious thought. When a baby is born the doctor will use a gimmick to make the baby breath for the first time.
And yes, i learned all the things you mentioned by using gimmicks, in fact the first thing i learned in school is guessing the teachers password.
Maybe we should taboo the word gimmick.
My definiton of gimmick: “A conscious change in behavior”
Something stops being a gimmick when: “The behavior occurs unconsciously”
At first you suck at math and have to study hard, then after some practice calculation results come naturally.
Ah yes. Well we mean very different things when we use the word gimmick. My definition would be more along the lines of “a concealed, usually devious aspect or feature of something, as a plan or deal”, which is one of Dictionary.com’s definitions.
So intention is probably the main problem.
If your ethics do not condone the intention behind the “trick” you consider it a “gimmick” and hence a bad thing.
I think lukeprog has not been clear enough on his intentions which causes newer users to read it as an evil gimmick promoting article.
Well, not the intention. I’m a utilitarian. But I think the consequences are worse for my definition—especially when you consider the utility function of the person being lied to.
To which “Well, that color/style/fit/whatever doesn’t particularly flatter you. Shall we look for something else?” is an acceptable response in any relationship I’m willing to care much about preserving, all else being equal.
But, sure, one can easily imagine situations in which all else is not equal. (Which is to say, I don’t share the OP’s view.)
Tangentially: someone asked me roughly that question once, somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I replied, roughly, “Hypothetically speaking, given a choice, would you rather have evidence that a friend of yours was willing to answer questions honestly even when the honest answer incurred a potentially high social cost, or would you rather have evidence that your friend was willing to conceal an unpleasant truth so as to spare your feelings?” They thought about it for a bit and somewhat hesitantly chose the former, and I told them they looked lovely (which they did). That left them puzzled for quite a while.
Your comment qualifies as a proof that I disrespect most people, including some of my loved ones. You could view it as a reductio ad absurdum of my opinion, or of your opinion; whichever you like better.
You’re presuming that the person in question wants to hear the truth. If they don’t, then the truly respectful response is not the same as the honest one.
And you’re presuming that if you respect someone you should just give them what they want...
I’m astonished that so many people advocating the spread rationality don’t strongly object to allowing people you presumably care about to continue their delusions.
And you’re presuming that if you respect someone you should just give them what they want...
Okay, let me correct my previous line: If they don’t, then the truly respectful response is not necessarily the same as the honest one. Of course there are situations where you should tell the truth, even if the other person doesn’t want to hear it right then. But there are also many situations where people are genuinely better off with their delusions, and breaking them would only do harm.
Advocating the spread of rationality does not give you a license to impose your own preferences on others regardless of how they feel about it. That includes the case where your preference is “people should only believe in true things”.
Advocating the spread of rationality does not give you a license to impose your own preferences on others regardless of how they feel about it. That includes the case where your preference is “people should only believe in true things”.
No it does not. But their asking me the question gives me a license to answer it honestly.
I’m not at all a Kantian—I’m quite decidedly a rule utilitarian, and in that vein, I think you would have more fulfilling relationships if you would just be yourself. And that’s just counting the utility function from your side, not hers. She would undoubtedly have a higher utility function if you were (more) honest.
That being said, my entire perception of your character is based solely on your one paragraph, which set off a large number of negative stereotypes I have about the male gender. I sincerely hope I have a misconception of how you act.
Hard to sum up my character quickly. I certainly feel like an open, honest, genuine person. I’m also quite happily ‘myself’. Trying to make relationships work any other way would be weird. Indeed, my communication with the ‘awesome poly girl’ is probably far more open and direct than is the communication in most relationships. And people in meat-space generally seem to like me.
Well, as I said, I’m not exactly an expert on your character. But what you described in that section sounds more to me like a pick up artist, more along the lines of Barney Stinson. How would you interpret it if you read what you wrote from the perspective of an outsider and that was all you knew about their character?
Well I wouldn’t necessarily call that a high standard. ;-) But as I indicated, I am massively cynical about the male gender (OK, fine, I’m cynical about everyone, not just men...).
Which part gives you the Barney Stinson vibe? Drinking liquid courage before talking to girls? Telling them directly I think they’re cute and would like to grab a coffee with them sometime? Not talking about politics?
I’ll try to take you though my feelings as I read the article: (But Barney Stinson was, of course, an exercise in hyperbole—I just love HIMYM)
I started out thinking I would really, really like the article and relate to your experiences. It’s always made me sad when exes can’t maintain some form of relationship, and I’ve always managed to in the past, and try to encourage others to as well.
I think that was the first line that bothered me, largely because it was a stereotype, and that I know many, many women for whom it is not true. Secondarily, it bothered me because it seemed to imply that you should act confident even if you are not in order to attract women, which I disagree with on ethical principle.
The “act this way to get laid” vibe continued for me in the “Use Science” section. This is what I was thinking as I read it.
No! If you like talking about these things, power to you, and if the person to whom you’re talking is put off by this, then it’s better to learn that now, as opposed to later.
Same as above—if you really enjoy telling stories and she enjoys listening to them, what’s the harm? Let conversion flow naturally, don’t force it places because of certain prescribed rules.
This didn’t really bother me. I’m from the south—smiling is polite, and I try to smile at people—it makes me happy, it makes them happy, and as a rule utilitarian, I can’t be opposed to that. But I am opposed to smiling at a girl to make her feel comfortable for the sole purpose of sleeping with her, which is what it came across as, to me, even if you didn’t mean it.
This is fine by me. Well, saying it is. If you think a girl’s cute, tell her. As I’ve said, I think honesty is always the best policy. But worrying about whether or not your other signals are “optimized” makes it come across as just another gimmick to me.
This is what made me the most angry, because it’s actively and intentionally lying about something. You know that it’s not just like something, yet you’re seemingly encouraging saying this just so people will have comfortable conversations with you. If you can’t have a comfortable conversation without lying to create transitions, you’re probably not compatible enough for a relationship, and you should stop wasting your time.
Ultimately, I think there is one rule to relationships: Be yourself. If you’re not compatible with someone, you’ll both find that out earlier rather than later. Except under highly contrived situations, I don’t think you can ever convince me that complete and total honesty is not the best policy, and I see most of what you suggest as good social strategies to simply be masks you put on yourself.
At first i had the same feelings about the article you did.
But then i remembered what my life-coach taught me: “All behaviours start out as “gimmicks”, after some time of training they go from gimmick to part of your natural behaviour and lose their gimmickness”
This was the best lesson i ever learned as refusing to use gimmicks has put me at a serious disadvantage to those people whole naturally learned about the gimmick when they where little children.
Like luke, using gimmicks has been the best thing to happen for my work and private life. (also people who know that im gimmicking appreciate the effort i put into bettering our relationships and actively help me)
One can easily construct examples of behaviour for which this is not true. The easiest (and most absurd) examples would be instinctive—breathing, eating, etc. So it is clear that not all behaviours start out at gimmicks.
But is it, as a rule, generally true? I still think not. Did your pursuit of rationality start out as a gimmick? Mine certainly did not. I don’t know anything about you beyond that (at least, presumably I know that, since you’re on this site) so it’s hard to come up with further examples. But I’ll go ahead and make some safe generalizations. Did you learn mathematics or physics by gimmicks? What about the most recent project at work? Did you complete that project by use of gimmicks?
Perhaps I am an idealist. Well, not perhaps. I am an idealist. But my reaction, upon noticing that the world (and especially the business world) operates by gimmickry is not to participate in it, and perpetuate the continuation of the system, but to oppose it in whatever manner I can.
there are some instinctive functions, but those are mostly limited to basic survival. The examples of breathing and eating are 2 things that most adults are doing incorrectly. To learn proper breathing you will have to apply a gimmick until your body and minds learns how to breath properly and you dont give it anymore consious thought. When a baby is born the doctor will use a gimmick to make the baby breath for the first time.
And yes, i learned all the things you mentioned by using gimmicks, in fact the first thing i learned in school is guessing the teachers password.
Maybe we should taboo the word gimmick. My definiton of gimmick: “A conscious change in behavior” Something stops being a gimmick when: “The behavior occurs unconsciously”
At first you suck at math and have to study hard, then after some practice calculation results come naturally.
Ah yes. Well we mean very different things when we use the word gimmick. My definition would be more along the lines of “a concealed, usually devious aspect or feature of something, as a plan or deal”, which is one of Dictionary.com’s definitions.
So intention is probably the main problem. If your ethics do not condone the intention behind the “trick” you consider it a “gimmick” and hence a bad thing.
I think lukeprog has not been clear enough on his intentions which causes newer users to read it as an evil gimmick promoting article.
Well, not the intention. I’m a utilitarian. But I think the consequences are worse for my definition—especially when you consider the utility function of the person being lied to.
I think the standard refutation is supposed to be “Does this dress make me look fat?”...
To which “Well, that color/style/fit/whatever doesn’t particularly flatter you. Shall we look for something else?” is an acceptable response in any relationship I’m willing to care much about preserving, all else being equal.
But, sure, one can easily imagine situations in which all else is not equal. (Which is to say, I don’t share the OP’s view.)
Tangentially: someone asked me roughly that question once, somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I replied, roughly, “Hypothetically speaking, given a choice, would you rather have evidence that a friend of yours was willing to answer questions honestly even when the honest answer incurred a potentially high social cost, or would you rather have evidence that your friend was willing to conceal an unpleasant truth so as to spare your feelings?” They thought about it for a bit and somewhat hesitantly chose the former, and I told them they looked lovely (which they did). That left them puzzled for quite a while.
The best answer I’ve heard to such questions is ‘I can’t tell; you’ll have to take it off so I can get a better look’.
If you truly respect the person asking you that, the only answer you can give is an honest one.
Your comment qualifies as a proof that I disrespect most people, including some of my loved ones. You could view it as a reductio ad absurdum of my opinion, or of your opinion; whichever you like better.
You’re presuming that the person in question wants to hear the truth. If they don’t, then the truly respectful response is not the same as the honest one.
And you’re presuming that if you respect someone you should just give them what they want...
I’m astonished that so many people advocating the spread rationality don’t strongly object to allowing people you presumably care about to continue their delusions.
Okay, let me correct my previous line: If they don’t, then the truly respectful response is not necessarily the same as the honest one. Of course there are situations where you should tell the truth, even if the other person doesn’t want to hear it right then. But there are also many situations where people are genuinely better off with their delusions, and breaking them would only do harm.
Advocating the spread of rationality does not give you a license to impose your own preferences on others regardless of how they feel about it. That includes the case where your preference is “people should only believe in true things”.
No it does not. But their asking me the question gives me a license to answer it honestly.
Thanks! This was indeed quite helpful.
Sure thing.