I’m still not convinced that a typical straight male LW reader won’t find, in his dating pool, quite a few women who don’t behave like the prototypical chick in a PUA parable.
Well, the “buying a drink” story is an extreme example that’s been canonized to make a point. But I’m convinced that in general, human beings are always unconsciously “testing” each other, and that this applies to everyone, male or female, autistic or NT. It’s just part of how humans talk and joke around and communicate. For instance, saying hi to someone and smiling is “testing”: you’re seeing what kind of mood someone is in. Making a joke, or laughing at a joke, is “testing”: you’re seeing how other people react.
I don’t see the “PUA” stuff as about sex or dating or men and women. It’s about human social interaction in general.
I suggest there’s a difference between “testing” and “checking”. In a test, you’re trying to find out whether the other person will fail or (in the case of bullies) hoping they will, while in a check, you’ll hoping they’ll succeed. I gather there are some people who are pretty evenly balanced on the chack/test scale—if the other person passes, fine, it’s a potential friendship, and if the other person fails, the harassment commences.
I think that a lot of small talk is what I call “pinging”—“Hello, I’m here and friendly”.
Using your test/check distinction, I think in most cases, including the “buy me a drink” scenario, what’s going on is a check. After all, the attractive girl is in a bar talking to the guy; she’d prefer the guy be attractive to her, not a pushover.
Yes, status-testing is a general component of typical human interaction. I think this is the point that Roko was trying to make, even though his particular example was rather gendered. If you want to see status testing in a non-male-female context, watch the behavior of frat boys, for example.
The point is that for those unfamiliar with this behavior, they need to be able to identify it when it happens, to not take it personally or as a sign of hostility, and know how to respond. Roko’s advocation of “caching responses” is very helpful, until one gets a gut feeling and can be guided towards a satisfactory response merely by emotions.
If you want to see status testing in a non-male-female context, watch the behavior of frat boys, for example.
I understand your point: that is an extremely visible and easy to see example of a dominance hierarchy.
But I’m more thinking about testing in general, not necessarily status testing. I interpret most testing as learning about the other person’s responses, not necessarily testing their status. I don’t even know if I would interpret the “buying a drink” story as about status: it’s more about humor and confidence.
The frat boy example has extremely negative connotations, and I wouldn’t call it “typical human interaction”. How about “watch two people having a pleasant and friendly conversation, laughing together, and enjoying each other’s company”? That’s a more pleasant example of unconscious testing, in the sense of unconsciously doing things to see people’s reactions and learning about the other person.
Well, the “buying a drink” story is an extreme example that’s been canonized to make a point. But I’m convinced that in general, human beings are always unconsciously “testing” each other, and that this applies to everyone, male or female, autistic or NT. It’s just part of how humans talk and joke around and communicate. For instance, saying hi to someone and smiling is “testing”: you’re seeing what kind of mood someone is in. Making a joke, or laughing at a joke, is “testing”: you’re seeing how other people react.
I don’t see the “PUA” stuff as about sex or dating or men and women. It’s about human social interaction in general.
I suggest there’s a difference between “testing” and “checking”. In a test, you’re trying to find out whether the other person will fail or (in the case of bullies) hoping they will, while in a check, you’ll hoping they’ll succeed. I gather there are some people who are pretty evenly balanced on the chack/test scale—if the other person passes, fine, it’s a potential friendship, and if the other person fails, the harassment commences.
I think that a lot of small talk is what I call “pinging”—“Hello, I’m here and friendly”.
Good point about the pinging.
Using your test/check distinction, I think in most cases, including the “buy me a drink” scenario, what’s going on is a check. After all, the attractive girl is in a bar talking to the guy; she’d prefer the guy be attractive to her, not a pushover.
Yes, status-testing is a general component of typical human interaction. I think this is the point that Roko was trying to make, even though his particular example was rather gendered. If you want to see status testing in a non-male-female context, watch the behavior of frat boys, for example.
The point is that for those unfamiliar with this behavior, they need to be able to identify it when it happens, to not take it personally or as a sign of hostility, and know how to respond. Roko’s advocation of “caching responses” is very helpful, until one gets a gut feeling and can be guided towards a satisfactory response merely by emotions.
I understand your point: that is an extremely visible and easy to see example of a dominance hierarchy.
But I’m more thinking about testing in general, not necessarily status testing. I interpret most testing as learning about the other person’s responses, not necessarily testing their status. I don’t even know if I would interpret the “buying a drink” story as about status: it’s more about humor and confidence.
The frat boy example has extremely negative connotations, and I wouldn’t call it “typical human interaction”. How about “watch two people having a pleasant and friendly conversation, laughing together, and enjoying each other’s company”? That’s a more pleasant example of unconscious testing, in the sense of unconsciously doing things to see people’s reactions and learning about the other person.
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