Again, please understand that this is a little frustrating for me. Just throwing some goddamn links without further comment for now, OK? The below is entirely random, just the stuff I had in nearby tabs—I have no idea of what links to pick for a proper LW-style introduction to a subject.
Responding to these in the order I look at them which is not the order you linked them:
The gender one fails literally in the first 2 paragraphs.
Women aren’t oppressed and haven’t STARTED being oppressed due to 18th or 19th century cultural regimes like the bourgeois. This is like explaining black oppression as a consequence of the KKK despite african slavery having been a thing for centuries before that.
In the interests of policing every comment about my blog anywhere on the internet thought I’d comment.
@drethelin
It is self evident, but posts like that are intended to communicate the point to libertarians in a way they can understand (eg weird reductionist economist speak). I wish we lived in a world where nobody denied employers have power over their employees, but alas it is not the case.
@orphan
Work is necessary; working for a man in a moustache under hierarchical conditions is by no means natural (in fact, historically people have been incredibly resistant to wage labour and in many cases were effectively forced into it). It isn’t about people being free from consequence; it’s about their livelihoods and even life depending on whether someone who happens to own, legally, the means of production, decides to ‘grant’ them the ‘privilege’ of enough money for basic rights.
Personally I find it to be silly. It revolves around freedom from consequence, which is another way about the position that decisions shouldn’t matter, which is itself another way about tyranny. The concept of freedom expressed there is triviality; nothing you do can matter, because if it did, you might not feel free to make that choice.
Which rather sharply contradicts with my own notions of freedom, which require first and foremost that my decisions -do- matter.
Freedom from consequence. The fundamental argument there is that workers have little freedom because, for example, they have to eat, they have to pay their bills, etc. It’s the argument, at its root, that the price we pay for our decisions shouldn’t be too high—and, to recycle my words, that our decisions should be fundamentally trivial. Whether or not we go to work today shouldn’t affect us too much more than whether or not we wear a red shirt or a blue shirt.
And by this I don’t mean such individuals want to be -completely- free of consequence, just free of any consequence that substantially burdens them, that makes their lives substantively worse. They’re fine with consequence, so long as the consequence is inconsequential. (The precise extent varies by individual, but the basics exist there in some extent.)
you’re moralizing altogether too hard. The argument isn’t that workers should be FREE of consequences, it’s that the consequences are disproportionately on them for the decisions of others. This is an argument of fact, and whatever you think may be the correct moral response to this is up to you, but I think it’s definitely true that holders of capital have more power in employment decisions than laborer and that this works out badly for the laborers because they suffer from coordination problems in bargaining.
I don’t regard freedom as a morally desirable state, but rather a state necessary to morality.
And the author doesn’t make that argument. He/she states that obligations such as “debts, families, and of course social obligations” put workers in a weaker bargaining position. The argument is heavily detached from its implications, but those implications are no less there for it—until workers are without such obligation, without the need to work for food and board, they are in a state of coercion. Until the decisions of workers do not actually matter, they—being in a state of coercion—have little freedom of their own.
The author is the one moralizing, with cautious implications, exacting connotations, and carefully evaded implications. My response is merely to point out what it is.
obligations such as “debts, families, and of course social obligations” put workers in a weaker bargaining position. The argument is heavily detached from its implications, but those implications are no less there for it—until workers are without such obligation, without the need to work for food and board, they are in a state of coercion.
The word ‘coercion’ might be slipping in some unwarranted connotations, but this seems roughly correct to me. There’s a reason that having enough wealth saved up to live comfortably for an extended period of time is popularly known as having ‘f**k you money’.
I don’t think there is a single thing in the piece I could describe as factually untrue. The factual truthness of it isn’t really the problem; the problem is that nothing the author was intending to convey actually depends upon the truth; the truth conveyed is a relatively trivial one, practically a tautology; those who depend on working to live have to work to live.
Everything in the post comes back to that one truth. The author even takes it as a given that justice requires that people -not- have to work to live (that’s what the “universal wage” line is), and then argues that this isn’t enough, because other things in life still require you to work, and you’re still being coerced. (Coerced by what? Reality?)
It’s an exceptionally well crafted piece of dark arts.
Again, please understand that this is a little frustrating for me. Just throwing some goddamn links without further comment for now, OK? The below is entirely random, just the stuff I had in nearby tabs—I have no idea of what links to pick for a proper LW-style introduction to a subject.
Structural power as applied to decision theory:
http://personal.lse.ac.uk/Kanazawa/pdfs/AJS1994.pdf
Erik Olin Wright’s works on Marxist social analysis:
http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~wright/selected-published-writings.htm
Gender:
http://isreview.org/issues/02/engles_family.shtml
Econ:
http://unlearningeconomics.wordpress.com/2012/10/27/a-brief-anti-economist-history/
http://unlearningeconomics.wordpress.com/2012/07/06/why-does-capital-have-more-bargaining-power-than-labour/
http://unlearningeconomics.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/is-economics-a-gun-that-only-fires-left/
(Also check out Chris Dillow’s blog.)
Responding to these in the order I look at them which is not the order you linked them: The gender one fails literally in the first 2 paragraphs.
Women aren’t oppressed and haven’t STARTED being oppressed due to 18th or 19th century cultural regimes like the bourgeois. This is like explaining black oppression as a consequence of the KKK despite african slavery having been a thing for centuries before that.
can you show me ONE post you read (not at random) that seemed as awesome and sense-making as http://lesswrong.com/lw/np/disputing_definitions/ or http://lesswrong.com/lw/nu/taboo_your_words/ or http://lesswrong.com/lw/ny/sneaking_in_connotations/ or etc.
http://personal.lse.ac.uk/Kanazawa/pdfs/AJS1994.pdf this seems good but not actually about Marxism?
http://unlearningeconomics.wordpress.com/2012/07/06/why-does-capital-have-more-bargaining-power-than-labour/ This is good but seems pretty self-evident to me?
Hi,
In the interests of policing every comment about my blog anywhere on the internet thought I’d comment.
@drethelin
It is self evident, but posts like that are intended to communicate the point to libertarians in a way they can understand (eg weird reductionist economist speak). I wish we lived in a world where nobody denied employers have power over their employees, but alas it is not the case.
@orphan
Work is necessary; working for a man in a moustache under hierarchical conditions is by no means natural (in fact, historically people have been incredibly resistant to wage labour and in many cases were effectively forced into it). It isn’t about people being free from consequence; it’s about their livelihoods and even life depending on whether someone who happens to own, legally, the means of production, decides to ‘grant’ them the ‘privilege’ of enough money for basic rights.
Holy shit, that sounds exhausting. How do you find the time?
I was semi-joking, sometimes I just don’t bother.
But the short answer to your question is: I’m a student.
Personally I find it to be silly. It revolves around freedom from consequence, which is another way about the position that decisions shouldn’t matter, which is itself another way about tyranny. The concept of freedom expressed there is triviality; nothing you do can matter, because if it did, you might not feel free to make that choice.
Which rather sharply contradicts with my own notions of freedom, which require first and foremost that my decisions -do- matter.
It revolves around what now? I really don’t know what you’re saying here.
Freedom from consequence. The fundamental argument there is that workers have little freedom because, for example, they have to eat, they have to pay their bills, etc. It’s the argument, at its root, that the price we pay for our decisions shouldn’t be too high—and, to recycle my words, that our decisions should be fundamentally trivial. Whether or not we go to work today shouldn’t affect us too much more than whether or not we wear a red shirt or a blue shirt.
And by this I don’t mean such individuals want to be -completely- free of consequence, just free of any consequence that substantially burdens them, that makes their lives substantively worse. They’re fine with consequence, so long as the consequence is inconsequential. (The precise extent varies by individual, but the basics exist there in some extent.)
you’re moralizing altogether too hard. The argument isn’t that workers should be FREE of consequences, it’s that the consequences are disproportionately on them for the decisions of others. This is an argument of fact, and whatever you think may be the correct moral response to this is up to you, but I think it’s definitely true that holders of capital have more power in employment decisions than laborer and that this works out badly for the laborers because they suffer from coordination problems in bargaining.
I don’t regard freedom as a morally desirable state, but rather a state necessary to morality.
And the author doesn’t make that argument. He/she states that obligations such as “debts, families, and of course social obligations” put workers in a weaker bargaining position. The argument is heavily detached from its implications, but those implications are no less there for it—until workers are without such obligation, without the need to work for food and board, they are in a state of coercion. Until the decisions of workers do not actually matter, they—being in a state of coercion—have little freedom of their own.
The author is the one moralizing, with cautious implications, exacting connotations, and carefully evaded implications. My response is merely to point out what it is.
The word ‘coercion’ might be slipping in some unwarranted connotations, but this seems roughly correct to me. There’s a reason that having enough wealth saved up to live comfortably for an extended period of time is popularly known as having ‘f**k you money’.
I don’t think there is a single thing in the piece I could describe as factually untrue. The factual truthness of it isn’t really the problem; the problem is that nothing the author was intending to convey actually depends upon the truth; the truth conveyed is a relatively trivial one, practically a tautology; those who depend on working to live have to work to live.
Everything in the post comes back to that one truth. The author even takes it as a given that justice requires that people -not- have to work to live (that’s what the “universal wage” line is), and then argues that this isn’t enough, because other things in life still require you to work, and you’re still being coerced. (Coerced by what? Reality?)
It’s an exceptionally well crafted piece of dark arts.