My understanding is that the only difference between RNA and traditional vaccines is that the RNA version enlists the body cells to make the virus proteins, instead of making the proteins in a lab and then injecting them.
So, there is no grater ability to “tag” people with an RNA version than the traditional version.
Ah OK i understand the confusion, and it’s from an oversimplification of how the vaccine works. While both the DNA and RNA vaccines are said to produce spike proteins that ultimately present on the surface of the host cell, triggering an immune response, there is also the viral DNA/RNA immune system, sometimes described as the RISC: How Drosha and Dicer work in RNA interference—YouTube
This works with both double-stranded and single-stranded RNA, but the system seems to be much more aggressive against double-stranded, which would make sense as since humans don’t make dsRNA very often, while their are whole classes of virus dedicated to it. It’s way less “self”, because self RNA has special sequences (poly-A) and is decorated in special proteins (CAP) that it acquired due to being made at the right place at the right time. Kind of like a hallway pass.
I don’t know if the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines, which are RNA, are ssRNA or dsRNA, but suffice to say they will absoluely kick off the immune response. To my knowledge it would be unfathomibly hard to sneak synthetic DNA/RNA past the RISC (and there are homologs for DNA by the way—DNA is supposed to be in the nucleus only, and decorated in all sorts of shit). If it can be done, it can’t be done on the cheap, which is what these new class of vaccines are supposed to provide.
This system is not some abstract complex that doesn’t play a role, it is THE method by which the cell protect itself from viral attacks, at the front-line. The presentation of the spike protein on the surface of the cell is the white flag of surrender, as it will kick off necrosis through immune recognition for sure. The RISC and similar pathways also hold back all retrovirals, so it’s a constant background thing going on. Also present in germline cells, just FWIW.
But even if the RISC and similar pathways are not involved at all, the digital nature of the vaccine in that all of our cells will present the exact same spike protein in pre-packaged form for the immune system to digest, be it RNA or DNA as the route, creates a situation where that spike protein could be cheaply designed to be reliably and specifically different from batch of vaccine to the next, as a tag, with no obvious effect on the efficacy of the vaccine. The modification of an internal fold for example would be all that is needed, and now that person will express that information in their blood for as long as they stay immunised.
I don’t know if the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines, which are RNA, are ssRNA or dsRNA, but suffice to say they will absoluely kick off the immune response.
Basically, you don’t know what you are talking about. They are mRNA vaccines not ssRNA or dsRNA vaccines. They don’t program the body to build any ssRNA or dsRNA.
I should have looked up the abbreviations again. Having looked up the proper abbreviations again, miRNA seems to be what the RNA immune system uses to block some viral genes from expressing and the RNA that comes with the vaccine doesn’t do RNA interference.
My understanding is that the only difference between RNA and traditional vaccines is that the RNA version enlists the body cells to make the virus proteins, instead of making the proteins in a lab and then injecting them. So, there is no grater ability to “tag” people with an RNA version than the traditional version.
Ah OK i understand the confusion, and it’s from an oversimplification of how the vaccine works. While both the DNA and RNA vaccines are said to produce spike proteins that ultimately present on the surface of the host cell, triggering an immune response, there is also the viral DNA/RNA immune system, sometimes described as the RISC: How Drosha and Dicer work in RNA interference—YouTube
This works with both double-stranded and single-stranded RNA, but the system seems to be much more aggressive against double-stranded, which would make sense as since humans don’t make dsRNA very often, while their are whole classes of virus dedicated to it. It’s way less “self”, because self RNA has special sequences (poly-A) and is decorated in special proteins (CAP) that it acquired due to being made at the right place at the right time. Kind of like a hallway pass.
I don’t know if the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines, which are RNA, are ssRNA or dsRNA, but suffice to say they will absoluely kick off the immune response. To my knowledge it would be unfathomibly hard to sneak synthetic DNA/RNA past the RISC (and there are homologs for DNA by the way—DNA is supposed to be in the nucleus only, and decorated in all sorts of shit). If it can be done, it can’t be done on the cheap, which is what these new class of vaccines are supposed to provide.
This system is not some abstract complex that doesn’t play a role, it is THE method by which the cell protect itself from viral attacks, at the front-line. The presentation of the spike protein on the surface of the cell is the white flag of surrender, as it will kick off necrosis through immune recognition for sure. The RISC and similar pathways also hold back all retrovirals, so it’s a constant background thing going on. Also present in germline cells, just FWIW.
But even if the RISC and similar pathways are not involved at all, the digital nature of the vaccine in that all of our cells will present the exact same spike protein in pre-packaged form for the immune system to digest, be it RNA or DNA as the route, creates a situation where that spike protein could be cheaply designed to be reliably and specifically different from batch of vaccine to the next, as a tag, with no obvious effect on the efficacy of the vaccine. The modification of an internal fold for example would be all that is needed, and now that person will express that information in their blood for as long as they stay immunised.
Basically, you don’t know what you are talking about. They are mRNA vaccines not ssRNA or dsRNA vaccines. They don’t program the body to build any ssRNA or dsRNA.
wat. mRNA is ssRNA.
I should have looked up the abbreviations again. Having looked up the proper abbreviations again, miRNA seems to be what the RNA immune system uses to block some viral genes from expressing and the RNA that comes with the vaccine doesn’t do RNA interference.