When I moved to Ireland, I knew that their school system, and in particular their examinations, would be different from the ones I was used to.
What were the main differences? I am guessing the school system you moved from was the US? As I only know parts of the UK system, I feel like I’m missing possibly important information.
The only (unfortunate) major difference between the English[0] and Irish university systems is that most English degrees take three years Ireland has been steadily moving towards four for decades. We have the same grading system for degrees, the same (old) academic calendar with some universities having adopted the American one. I am not under the impression that the manner of teaching is wildly different in the US from the rest of the world (except for the abombination that is the Socratic method, in that other abombination, the postgraduate law school). They do seem to be much more fond of multiple choice tests than in those parts of the world with more dialects of English.
[0] I could probably have said British, but the Scottish system is different in some ways I’m too lazy to look up.
On the Socratic method; I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about that or could write an article on the benefits and consequences of it. From what I see is that the above average students get frustrated when the jump to conclusions faster than the teachers guide the class to them, and the below average students who consistently aren’t understanding the questions, with the Socratic method really only working for the average students (this scale though can be re-calibrated, for example if the teacher caters the to the below average students, now the average students are also frustrated, and vice versa.)
The main problem with using the Socratic Method as a didactic tool is that it really wasn’t intended for that purpose; Socrates was a man who claimed to know nothing, and the “Socratic method” is simply a collection of techniques he developed to demonstrate that other people didn’t know anything either. 90% of his so-called Method (as demonstrated in the early dialogues like Euthyphro or Charmides—which have the highest probability of actually being representative of things he actually said, and not just mouthpiecing from Plato) consists of Socrates demanding that people define their terms, refusing to continue the argument until they did so, and then pointing out that the definitions they supply are either self-contradictory or inconsistent with what they’re actually arguing.
When used correctly, the Socratic method is great at exposing logical inconsistency and self- contradiction, but extremely inefficient when it comes to guiding people to truth—its purpose is to destroy; it does not create.
I’m curious: are you comparing the Socratic method here to some other technique that works more reliably with a broad range of capabilities?
I would have thought that no matter what technique I use, the subset of my class that I devote most of my attention to will get the most benefit, and everyone else will be frustrated that they aren’t getting as much out of it as they could with more attention.
You’re right, I really wasn’t thinking of a specific method of comparison, rather I was just kind of ranting on how much I dislike it. Of the teaching methods we have:
Lecturing- Above average students might be bored if the teacher is telling them information they already knew, but it many times has just a blanket boredom effect
Demonstrating- Even if certain students already know information, can still be interesting if they try to extend their thinking on the demonstration. The opposite of a lecture, many times has a blanket engaging effect
Socratic- See above post
So really, there is no silver bullet, only what you say of devoting attention to specific subsets of class. Apart from the limited use cases of a demonstration, the only way to maximize what part of the class is interested is by catering to the largest subset
Well, there is of course the alternative of getting away from the idea of one-teacher-many-students altogether, by encouraging students to teach one another, or by creating autodidactic tools that students can explore on their own, or by segmenting students differently, etc.
But yeah, if we’re restricting the scope of discussion to traditional teacher-led classrooms, the segmentation problem is hard to get away from.
That said, I’m rather fond of Socratic inquiry myself.
I partial to the Socratic method as well, but whenever I’m explaining something to someone, I have to constantly remind myself to stay away from it. Unfortunately, in my experience (which may not be representative), the Socratic method elicits very strong negative emotions in the target audience, and it does so very quickly. Making people hate you is not a good educational technique.
I find it works moderately well for me, but then again I am usually operating in a community of peers where it’s not a given who is teaching whom. I ask questions that are designed to elicit clear thought about areas of uncertainty, and either my interlocutor answers them sensibly and I am enlightened, or they fail to and they are.
I can see where it would be different if I went into the exchange convinced I was the instructor.
Yeah, the actual Socratic method is designed more to instill doubt than it is to explain concepts. (The student takes a position, then you shred it with pointed questions.)
The ‘modern’ Socratic method of asking leading questions doesn’t work all that well because of inferential distances and awkwardness. You standing there expectantly waiting while they think something through is oftentimes an unpleasant experience for them.
That’s why I think that the basic concept of “building block” schooling works-you essentially keep the distance constant, but teach them ever more challenging topics. The one time where there is a large gap is in the introduction of completely new ideas or subjects. For example, in physics when people first learn of general relativity there is a large inferential distance, which is very hard to remedy.
Interestingly, the one time that I find that the modern Socratic method works is math. Because it is so much more helpful in math to have an innate understanding of the subjects, you have to be able to explain why an equation or theorem works/is true. So when time permits, guiding them with questions is very helpful, as figuring something out sticks in your mind more than having it on a board.
What were the main differences? I am guessing the school system you moved from was the US? As I only know parts of the UK system, I feel like I’m missing possibly important information.
The only (unfortunate) major difference between the English[0] and Irish university systems is that most English degrees take three years Ireland has been steadily moving towards four for decades. We have the same grading system for degrees, the same (old) academic calendar with some universities having adopted the American one. I am not under the impression that the manner of teaching is wildly different in the US from the rest of the world (except for the abombination that is the Socratic method, in that other abombination, the postgraduate law school). They do seem to be much more fond of multiple choice tests than in those parts of the world with more dialects of English.
[0] I could probably have said British, but the Scottish system is different in some ways I’m too lazy to look up.
On the Socratic method; I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about that or could write an article on the benefits and consequences of it. From what I see is that the above average students get frustrated when the jump to conclusions faster than the teachers guide the class to them, and the below average students who consistently aren’t understanding the questions, with the Socratic method really only working for the average students (this scale though can be re-calibrated, for example if the teacher caters the to the below average students, now the average students are also frustrated, and vice versa.)
The main problem with using the Socratic Method as a didactic tool is that it really wasn’t intended for that purpose; Socrates was a man who claimed to know nothing, and the “Socratic method” is simply a collection of techniques he developed to demonstrate that other people didn’t know anything either. 90% of his so-called Method (as demonstrated in the early dialogues like Euthyphro or Charmides—which have the highest probability of actually being representative of things he actually said, and not just mouthpiecing from Plato) consists of Socrates demanding that people define their terms, refusing to continue the argument until they did so, and then pointing out that the definitions they supply are either self-contradictory or inconsistent with what they’re actually arguing. When used correctly, the Socratic method is great at exposing logical inconsistency and self- contradiction, but extremely inefficient when it comes to guiding people to truth—its purpose is to destroy; it does not create.
That’s really interesting; maybe we need a new name for the (convoluted) modern Socratic method?
I’m curious: are you comparing the Socratic method here to some other technique that works more reliably with a broad range of capabilities?
I would have thought that no matter what technique I use, the subset of my class that I devote most of my attention to will get the most benefit, and everyone else will be frustrated that they aren’t getting as much out of it as they could with more attention.
You’re right, I really wasn’t thinking of a specific method of comparison, rather I was just kind of ranting on how much I dislike it. Of the teaching methods we have: Lecturing- Above average students might be bored if the teacher is telling them information they already knew, but it many times has just a blanket boredom effect
Demonstrating- Even if certain students already know information, can still be interesting if they try to extend their thinking on the demonstration. The opposite of a lecture, many times has a blanket engaging effect
Socratic- See above post So really, there is no silver bullet, only what you say of devoting attention to specific subsets of class. Apart from the limited use cases of a demonstration, the only way to maximize what part of the class is interested is by catering to the largest subset
Well, there is of course the alternative of getting away from the idea of one-teacher-many-students altogether, by encouraging students to teach one another, or by creating autodidactic tools that students can explore on their own, or by segmenting students differently, etc.
But yeah, if we’re restricting the scope of discussion to traditional teacher-led classrooms, the segmentation problem is hard to get away from.
That said, I’m rather fond of Socratic inquiry myself.
I partial to the Socratic method as well, but whenever I’m explaining something to someone, I have to constantly remind myself to stay away from it. Unfortunately, in my experience (which may not be representative), the Socratic method elicits very strong negative emotions in the target audience, and it does so very quickly. Making people hate you is not a good educational technique.
I find it works moderately well for me, but then again I am usually operating in a community of peers where it’s not a given who is teaching whom. I ask questions that are designed to elicit clear thought about areas of uncertainty, and either my interlocutor answers them sensibly and I am enlightened, or they fail to and they are.
I can see where it would be different if I went into the exchange convinced I was the instructor.
Yeah, the actual Socratic method is designed more to instill doubt than it is to explain concepts. (The student takes a position, then you shred it with pointed questions.)
The ‘modern’ Socratic method of asking leading questions doesn’t work all that well because of inferential distances and awkwardness. You standing there expectantly waiting while they think something through is oftentimes an unpleasant experience for them.
In any form of teaching, expecting an appropriate inferential distance is important. I wonder to what degree that can be trained explicitly.
That’s why I think that the basic concept of “building block” schooling works-you essentially keep the distance constant, but teach them ever more challenging topics. The one time where there is a large gap is in the introduction of completely new ideas or subjects. For example, in physics when people first learn of general relativity there is a large inferential distance, which is very hard to remedy.
Amount you need to understand to get from what you currently understand to also understanding the new thing.
Eliezer talks about it in a piece well worth reading.
Interestingly, the one time that I find that the modern Socratic method works is math. Because it is so much more helpful in math to have an innate understanding of the subjects, you have to be able to explain why an equation or theorem works/is true. So when time permits, guiding them with questions is very helpful, as figuring something out sticks in your mind more than having it on a board.