Whether liberty is a useful metric for societies is beside the point, the point was that it is disingenuous to use “pro-liberty” as a codeword for “pro-private sector”, which is exactly what you appear to aim for here. The rhetoric of “pro-liberty” was already coloured capitalist before this discussion even started; it’s difficult and risky to bargain for taking the term at face value, against collective perception. So if one means to praise the merits of free market policies, it is best if one does so honestly and openly, and if there is no way to present your viewpoint sympathetically without using buzzwords, best to leave it out of the discussion entirely.
There are a lot of separate discussions we could have about the relationship between economic freedom and overall freedom, the distribution of freedom, categories most in need of liberation, whether capitalism macht frei and so on. But they have little bearing on this discussion, and it’s best for all participants to not conflate terms for rhetorical value.
So if one means to praise the merits of free market policies, it is best if one does so honestly and openly
One of the huge benefits/consequences/advantages of free market policies is the advancement of liberty (where this term is taken at face value). I see no reason to pretend this benefit does not exist.
conflate terms for rhetorical value
I don’t see any conflating going on. Free markets and (social and political) liberty are correlated and many people have made the point that you can’t have the latter without the former. I think this correlation is an empirically observable fact. What someone thinks is “in need of liberation” is neither here nor there.
Just because you are libertarian and, understandably, freedom in general seems to you inseparable from (or sufficiently strongly correlated with) free-market capitalism does not mean that this notion is not up for debate. There are people who value freedom, who do not value laissez faire capitalism, and until there is reasonable proof that their value system is incoherent, it is and remains disingenuous to use pro-liberty to really mean pro-capitalism. And the discussion on that is its own can of worms; the concept of freedom is stupendously broad and, if you’re not being very intellectually rigorous, can be used to justify any action taken by anyone ever.
it is and remains disingenuous to use pro-liberty to really mean pro-capitalism
You are not listening: wanting the outcome of liberty (at face value) and believing that there is an empirical correlation between free markets and liberty is a reasonable and defensible position. It’s not even a bit disingenuous to be pro-liberty (at face value) and to believe that pro-capitalism is the best (some people would even say “only”) way to get there.
You seem strangely unwilling to accept the pro-liberty inclinations literally, at face value. The observation that things are complicated is not a good justification here.
Whether something is a defensible position, and whether it should be embedded in the very terms you use when more-neutral terms are available, are separate questions.
If you say “I’m pro-liberty”, and somebody else says “no you’re not, and I think we could have a better discussion if you used more specific terms”, you don’t get to say “why won’t you accept me at face value”.
you don’t get to say “why won’t you accept me at face value”.
Oh, but I do :-)
The issue in this subthread is whether the call for liberty is a terminal goal in itself or is it a proxy for some other, hidden goal (here—laissez-faire capitalism).
I disagree. I think the issue is whether “pro-liberty” is the best descriptive term in this context. Does it point to the key difference between things it describes and things it doesn’t? Does it avoid unnecessary and controversial leaps of abstraction? Are there no other terms which all discussants would recognize as valid, if not ideal? No, no, and no.
Whether liberty is a useful metric for societies is beside the point, the point was that it is disingenuous to use “pro-liberty” as a codeword for “pro-private sector”, which is exactly what you appear to aim for here. The rhetoric of “pro-liberty” was already coloured capitalist before this discussion even started; it’s difficult and risky to bargain for taking the term at face value, against collective perception. So if one means to praise the merits of free market policies, it is best if one does so honestly and openly, and if there is no way to present your viewpoint sympathetically without using buzzwords, best to leave it out of the discussion entirely.
There are a lot of separate discussions we could have about the relationship between economic freedom and overall freedom, the distribution of freedom, categories most in need of liberation, whether capitalism macht frei and so on. But they have little bearing on this discussion, and it’s best for all participants to not conflate terms for rhetorical value.
You may be confused—I’m not the OP.
One of the huge benefits/consequences/advantages of free market policies is the advancement of liberty (where this term is taken at face value). I see no reason to pretend this benefit does not exist.
I don’t see any conflating going on. Free markets and (social and political) liberty are correlated and many people have made the point that you can’t have the latter without the former. I think this correlation is an empirically observable fact. What someone thinks is “in need of liberation” is neither here nor there.
Just because you are libertarian and, understandably, freedom in general seems to you inseparable from (or sufficiently strongly correlated with) free-market capitalism does not mean that this notion is not up for debate. There are people who value freedom, who do not value laissez faire capitalism, and until there is reasonable proof that their value system is incoherent, it is and remains disingenuous to use pro-liberty to really mean pro-capitalism. And the discussion on that is its own can of worms; the concept of freedom is stupendously broad and, if you’re not being very intellectually rigorous, can be used to justify any action taken by anyone ever.
You are not listening: wanting the outcome of liberty (at face value) and believing that there is an empirical correlation between free markets and liberty is a reasonable and defensible position. It’s not even a bit disingenuous to be pro-liberty (at face value) and to believe that pro-capitalism is the best (some people would even say “only”) way to get there.
You seem strangely unwilling to accept the pro-liberty inclinations literally, at face value. The observation that things are complicated is not a good justification here.
Whether something is a defensible position, and whether it should be embedded in the very terms you use when more-neutral terms are available, are separate questions.
If you say “I’m pro-liberty”, and somebody else says “no you’re not, and I think we could have a better discussion if you used more specific terms”, you don’t get to say “why won’t you accept me at face value”.
Oh, but I do :-)
The issue in this subthread is whether the call for liberty is a terminal goal in itself or is it a proxy for some other, hidden goal (here—laissez-faire capitalism).
I disagree. I think the issue is whether “pro-liberty” is the best descriptive term in this context. Does it point to the key difference between things it describes and things it doesn’t? Does it avoid unnecessary and controversial leaps of abstraction? Are there no other terms which all discussants would recognize as valid, if not ideal? No, no, and no.
Would you like to suggest a better term for the subject of this subthread, then?