The book is from a hobbits-eye-view. That’s quite explicit.
Yes, it’s just that you used this fact selectively in order to dismiss the evidence of their testimony (by essentially claiming they didn’t have the “right” perspective), you didn’t try to see all it was evidence for. That’s a failure of rationality.
If it’s written by Hobbits, then they have a better perspective on how the stronger peoples described in the book (Elves, Gondor etc) treat other weaker peoples.
And if it’s not written by Hobbits, but by Gondorians pretending to be hobbits, then that’s evidence in favour of Gondorians sharing the moral values espoused by the book.
I’m not sure about your point on species.
I’m saying that if we’re talking species, perhaps the first map you consider should be with species (e.g. how we treat sharks, or how we discuss baby-eaters and super-happies) instead of races.
You described LOTR as morally advanced, and for me that’s got a severe tension with racism.
Racism has two parts, the descriptive parts (such and such people are cognitively inferior or superior, or biologically predisposed to such-and-such behaviour) and the normative parts (you shouldn’t mingle with such-and-such-peoples, you should use them to your advantage instead).
If we’re discussing the in-universe culture that wrote LOTR, it seems to have parts of the former, but not the latter. The latter is the immoral aspect of racism, the former is merely about lack of knowledge. E.g. it may claim that Frodo’s adventurous side may have come from his Fallohide heritage, but it’s not as if Frodo or the book ever argues in favour of oppressing non-Fallohides.
Or e..g Gondor for example had a civil war regarding a racial issue, described in the appendices—one side didn’t want a mixed-race king, the other side accepted him. The good side (according to the text) was the side that did accept the mixed-race king—and yet the text doesn’t necessarily argue that character is NOT found on the genes. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn’t. Perhaps the Northerners were genetically inferior in some ways compared to the Dunedain—it just doesn’t have anything to do with it being okay to disqualify someone for kingship because of it.
I didn’t use to dismiss their testimony, I used it to object to you characterising the ‘people’ of the LOTR as if that meant the main characters who prosecute the war with Mordor. The writers of the LOTR are intended to be the Hobbits, who are explicitly peaceful etc. and who again explicitly don’t really understand the councils of the Wise etc. but are drafted in very late in the day. As for understanding how weaker people are treated, the evidence in the book shows that the hobbits were ignored early on, drafted in for a couple of incredibly dangerous missions by people more powerful than them, and then the society was left to the attacks of Saruman while two of its members were taking horrendous dangers. Of course they’re told that they’ve been being defended all along by Strider and co, but all they really know is that nothing has happened to them.
My map is for how we treat persons. The species in LOTR map to persons better than to non-persons.
While oppression isn’t explicitly condoned, there’s quite a lot of cases of ‘swarthy’ people, ‘Easterners’ etc. being bad. I don’t think you can say that imposing negative stereotypes that certain races are untrustworthy etc. isn’t part of the immoral part of racism. I agree there’s less of your latter sort, but doesn’t Gandalf talk about how the Numenorians have diminished themselves by mingling with lesser men?
Yes, it’s just that you used this fact selectively in order to dismiss the evidence of their testimony (by essentially claiming they didn’t have the “right” perspective), you didn’t try to see all it was evidence for. That’s a failure of rationality.
If it’s written by Hobbits, then they have a better perspective on how the stronger peoples described in the book (Elves, Gondor etc) treat other weaker peoples.
And if it’s not written by Hobbits, but by Gondorians pretending to be hobbits, then that’s evidence in favour of Gondorians sharing the moral values espoused by the book.
I’m saying that if we’re talking species, perhaps the first map you consider should be with species (e.g. how we treat sharks, or how we discuss baby-eaters and super-happies) instead of races.
Racism has two parts, the descriptive parts (such and such people are cognitively inferior or superior, or biologically predisposed to such-and-such behaviour) and the normative parts (you shouldn’t mingle with such-and-such-peoples, you should use them to your advantage instead).
If we’re discussing the in-universe culture that wrote LOTR, it seems to have parts of the former, but not the latter. The latter is the immoral aspect of racism, the former is merely about lack of knowledge. E.g. it may claim that Frodo’s adventurous side may have come from his Fallohide heritage, but it’s not as if Frodo or the book ever argues in favour of oppressing non-Fallohides.
Or e..g Gondor for example had a civil war regarding a racial issue, described in the appendices—one side didn’t want a mixed-race king, the other side accepted him. The good side (according to the text) was the side that did accept the mixed-race king—and yet the text doesn’t necessarily argue that character is NOT found on the genes. Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn’t. Perhaps the Northerners were genetically inferior in some ways compared to the Dunedain—it just doesn’t have anything to do with it being okay to disqualify someone for kingship because of it.
I didn’t use to dismiss their testimony, I used it to object to you characterising the ‘people’ of the LOTR as if that meant the main characters who prosecute the war with Mordor. The writers of the LOTR are intended to be the Hobbits, who are explicitly peaceful etc. and who again explicitly don’t really understand the councils of the Wise etc. but are drafted in very late in the day. As for understanding how weaker people are treated, the evidence in the book shows that the hobbits were ignored early on, drafted in for a couple of incredibly dangerous missions by people more powerful than them, and then the society was left to the attacks of Saruman while two of its members were taking horrendous dangers. Of course they’re told that they’ve been being defended all along by Strider and co, but all they really know is that nothing has happened to them.
My map is for how we treat persons. The species in LOTR map to persons better than to non-persons.
While oppression isn’t explicitly condoned, there’s quite a lot of cases of ‘swarthy’ people, ‘Easterners’ etc. being bad. I don’t think you can say that imposing negative stereotypes that certain races are untrustworthy etc. isn’t part of the immoral part of racism. I agree there’s less of your latter sort, but doesn’t Gandalf talk about how the Numenorians have diminished themselves by mingling with lesser men?