The history of religions sometimes resembles the history of viruses. Judaism and Islam were both highly virulent when they first broke out, driving the first generations of their people to conquer (Islam) or just slaughter (Judaism) everyone around them for the sin of not being them. They both grew more sedate over time.
Which I think acknowledges some of that early history. I assume what is said about Judaism has to do with the slaughter of Canaanites, which is possibly more than half legendary, unlike the exploits of Islam which happened in a much better documented time.
In different times and places, Islam has been extremely sometimes fanatical, and at other times received Jews who were driven out of Spain by the Inquisition, and showed toleration of other ideas. The ups and downs have probably been due to many causes, but there really has been an awakening in recent decades of Islamic fanaticism, and in this case, at least, I think the OP’s thesis might account for some of that; the thinking was just a bit too loose and brainstorm-ey. It is kind of a puzzle to have so many Muslims combining western education, and the ability to function in a modern metropolitan setting combined with extreme fanaticism.
A peak of Christian holy-warring, torturing and witch-burning came when Protestants set out to rid Catholicism of the many “irrational” (having no basis in the bible) false sacraments, and between the Reformation and the Counter-reformation, both Protestants and Catholics were studying the gospels more rigorously and attempting to weave it into a more logical justifiable structure.
I grew up in the 50s and 60s in a very loose sort of Methodist protestantism that was very unconcerned with issues like the literal 7 days of creation, with hell for sinners, with Satan going around tempting people, or with contesting evolution. It seemed to me only a few fossils insisted on all those sorts of things. For most, a general sort of largely “good Samaritan” morality seemed the most salient thing, and there was not much in society to challenge the general sexual mores of moderate protestantism.
I think it’s true generally, that religions, especially if lacking a strong central structure like that of Catholicism or Mormonism, or Islam esp. in times when the idea of a a caliph seemed remote, tend to “mellow” most of the time, especially when not particularly challenged, and to evolve into largely going through the motions, but many different things contribute to a stirring of popular zeal and fanaticism. Both being in close contact with challenges from other belief systems and schooling that trains people to be more logical can contribute, and the result can be a lot of ideas that people half-forgot and certainly didn’t apply rigorously start to come to the fore.
I have listened on audio to both the Koran and the Bible, and admit that the Koran has a stronger more consistent version of the meme that God loathes unbelievers and intends to torture them for eternity, but it is a part of Christianity too, and in Islam it has frequently faded into the background. Again, Islam having been established last, is intensely aware of Judaism and Christianity, and rants against them specifically, but at times (esp the 16 and 17 centuries) there were more islands of toleration for Jews in the Muslim world than in Christiandom. Constant assertion that Islam is uniquely inhumane are just the sort of thing that strengthens fanaticism. In criticizing religion, I’ve come to the conclusion that we should tell believers that to the extent they believe in God’s loathing and wanting to torture “Infidels”, their beliefs present a real problem to others.
In criticizing religion, I’ve come to the conclusion that we should tell believers that to the extent they believe in God’s loathing and wanting to torture “Infidels”, their beliefs present a real problem to others.
Does it work?
I am imagining a believer retorting that of course their beliefs present a real problem to others, and the bigger the problem the better. As indeed might a Christian accused of presenting a real problem to the rich, or a vegan accused of presenting a real problem to the meat industry, or an Ethical Altruist presenting a real problem to people buying $5000 bespoke suits.
The whole point of being an activist for any cause is to be a real problem to their opponents. To be told that they are a real problem is to tell them that they are succeeding.
It is kind of a puzzle to have so many Muslims combining western education, and the ability to function in a modern metropolitan setting combined with extreme fanaticism.
I don’t think it’s puzzling. Examine your implicit assumptions—which exactly part of your worldview would say that Western education and living in a city should be incompatible with religious fanaticism?
Constant assertion that Islam is uniquely inhumane are just the sort of thing that strengthens fanaticism.
The issue with Islam is not that it’s “inhumane”, the issue is that it is naturally a totalitarian religion. Christianity says “render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s”, but Islam says no such thing. From an Islamic point of view there is absolutely no reason why politics should not be subservient to faith and indeed the Christian approach is routinely called schizophrenic.
which exactly part of your worldview would say that Western education and living in a city should be incompatible with religious fanaticism?
Cultural development seems not to follow such orderly laws that we can use the word “incompatible” very often if ever. But going to a western university tends to promote individual thought over blind acceptance of whatever you were taught in childhood, and while someone who spent their live in some valley in Afghanistan or northern Pakistan, never exposed to different people, might imagine westerners as cloven hoofed devils, it is at least a reasonable point of view to suppose that going to school with westerners could lesson that kind of visceral revulsion.
I’m a little take aback, as “render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s” is an admonition to obey established political authority. And “render unto God what is God’s” is the possibly subversive part—though it’s only recommending obedience to a competing authority”. Also, Christian Russia, esp around the time of Ivan the Terrible was arguably the most totalitarian major state for its time (the main argument would be over China, I think). I believe Paul’s writings give ample admonitions to obey authority, and for slaves to obey their masters.
What would you say in the doctrines of Islam makes it “naturally a totalitarian religion”? I assume you have some analysis that leads you to that conclusion.
The OP did write:
Which I think acknowledges some of that early history. I assume what is said about Judaism has to do with the slaughter of Canaanites, which is possibly more than half legendary, unlike the exploits of Islam which happened in a much better documented time.
In different times and places, Islam has been extremely sometimes fanatical, and at other times received Jews who were driven out of Spain by the Inquisition, and showed toleration of other ideas. The ups and downs have probably been due to many causes, but there really has been an awakening in recent decades of Islamic fanaticism, and in this case, at least, I think the OP’s thesis might account for some of that; the thinking was just a bit too loose and brainstorm-ey. It is kind of a puzzle to have so many Muslims combining western education, and the ability to function in a modern metropolitan setting combined with extreme fanaticism.
A peak of Christian holy-warring, torturing and witch-burning came when Protestants set out to rid Catholicism of the many “irrational” (having no basis in the bible) false sacraments, and between the Reformation and the Counter-reformation, both Protestants and Catholics were studying the gospels more rigorously and attempting to weave it into a more logical justifiable structure.
I grew up in the 50s and 60s in a very loose sort of Methodist protestantism that was very unconcerned with issues like the literal 7 days of creation, with hell for sinners, with Satan going around tempting people, or with contesting evolution. It seemed to me only a few fossils insisted on all those sorts of things. For most, a general sort of largely “good Samaritan” morality seemed the most salient thing, and there was not much in society to challenge the general sexual mores of moderate protestantism.
I think it’s true generally, that religions, especially if lacking a strong central structure like that of Catholicism or Mormonism, or Islam esp. in times when the idea of a a caliph seemed remote, tend to “mellow” most of the time, especially when not particularly challenged, and to evolve into largely going through the motions, but many different things contribute to a stirring of popular zeal and fanaticism. Both being in close contact with challenges from other belief systems and schooling that trains people to be more logical can contribute, and the result can be a lot of ideas that people half-forgot and certainly didn’t apply rigorously start to come to the fore.
I have listened on audio to both the Koran and the Bible, and admit that the Koran has a stronger more consistent version of the meme that God loathes unbelievers and intends to torture them for eternity, but it is a part of Christianity too, and in Islam it has frequently faded into the background. Again, Islam having been established last, is intensely aware of Judaism and Christianity, and rants against them specifically, but at times (esp the 16 and 17 centuries) there were more islands of toleration for Jews in the Muslim world than in Christiandom. Constant assertion that Islam is uniquely inhumane are just the sort of thing that strengthens fanaticism. In criticizing religion, I’ve come to the conclusion that we should tell believers that to the extent they believe in God’s loathing and wanting to torture “Infidels”, their beliefs present a real problem to others.
Does it work?
I am imagining a believer retorting that of course their beliefs present a real problem to others, and the bigger the problem the better. As indeed might a Christian accused of presenting a real problem to the rich, or a vegan accused of presenting a real problem to the meat industry, or an Ethical Altruist presenting a real problem to people buying $5000 bespoke suits.
The whole point of being an activist for any cause is to be a real problem to their opponents. To be told that they are a real problem is to tell them that they are succeeding.
I don’t think it’s puzzling. Examine your implicit assumptions—which exactly part of your worldview would say that Western education and living in a city should be incompatible with religious fanaticism?
The issue with Islam is not that it’s “inhumane”, the issue is that it is naturally a totalitarian religion. Christianity says “render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s”, but Islam says no such thing. From an Islamic point of view there is absolutely no reason why politics should not be subservient to faith and indeed the Christian approach is routinely called schizophrenic.
Cultural development seems not to follow such orderly laws that we can use the word “incompatible” very often if ever. But going to a western university tends to promote individual thought over blind acceptance of whatever you were taught in childhood, and while someone who spent their live in some valley in Afghanistan or northern Pakistan, never exposed to different people, might imagine westerners as cloven hoofed devils, it is at least a reasonable point of view to suppose that going to school with westerners could lesson that kind of visceral revulsion.
I’m a little take aback, as “render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s” is an admonition to obey established political authority. And “render unto God what is God’s” is the possibly subversive part—though it’s only recommending obedience to a competing authority”. Also, Christian Russia, esp around the time of Ivan the Terrible was arguably the most totalitarian major state for its time (the main argument would be over China, I think). I believe Paul’s writings give ample admonitions to obey authority, and for slaves to obey their masters.
What would you say in the doctrines of Islam makes it “naturally a totalitarian religion”? I assume you have some analysis that leads you to that conclusion.