There is some difference between group ideas and group norms, although sometimes these two overlap. There is also a difference between challenging group ideas, and breaking group norms.
An example of a group idea: “It is reasonable to give million dollars to an organization that will freeze your head when you die, because someone might scan your brain and make a machine simulation of you, and it will be really you.”
An example of a group norm: “We should refrain from political examples, personal attacks, irrational arguments, etc.”
An example of challenging a group idea: “I think the machine simulation is not really you. Even if it is ‘alive’, it is a new life form; and your old self is dead.”
An example of breaking group norms: “This is so stupid!!! I guess you have also voted for [political party]!”
Sometimes these two things can be confused. For example it can be a group norm to never challenge group ideas (or to limit challenging them to ways that have no chance to succeed). This should not happen. On the other hand, it is also very frequent to obviously break group norms and then complain about group’s intolerance to challenging its ideas—this is a typical pattern for many internet trolls, and the community should be able to recognize it.
An example: “Cryonics does not work, f*** you!” “Downvoted for swearing.” “You just downvote me because I disagree with you, f*** you!”
Also sometimes the group’s norms are as problematic as its ideas; e.g. KKK, Nazis.
But usually the norms are not too bad, it’s just the ideas that are ridiculous (moderate religion in a nutshell). So it definitely makes sense to make a distinction for practical purposes.
Yes, agreed with all of this. Though as you suggest, the two can overlap. “Give million dollars to an organization that will freeze your head when you die” can become a group norm, and “refrain from political examples, personal attacks, irrational arguments, etc.” can be a group idea. And as you say, it is common for one to be confused for the other, sometimes deliberately for rhetorical effect.
There is some difference between group ideas and group norms, although sometimes these two overlap. There is also a difference between challenging group ideas, and breaking group norms.
An example of a group idea: “It is reasonable to give million dollars to an organization that will freeze your head when you die, because someone might scan your brain and make a machine simulation of you, and it will be really you.”
An example of a group norm: “We should refrain from political examples, personal attacks, irrational arguments, etc.”
An example of challenging a group idea: “I think the machine simulation is not really you. Even if it is ‘alive’, it is a new life form; and your old self is dead.”
An example of breaking group norms: “This is so stupid!!! I guess you have also voted for [political party]!”
Sometimes these two things can be confused. For example it can be a group norm to never challenge group ideas (or to limit challenging them to ways that have no chance to succeed). This should not happen. On the other hand, it is also very frequent to obviously break group norms and then complain about group’s intolerance to challenging its ideas—this is a typical pattern for many internet trolls, and the community should be able to recognize it.
An example: “Cryonics does not work, f*** you!” “Downvoted for swearing.” “You just downvote me because I disagree with you, f*** you!”
Also sometimes the group’s norms are as problematic as its ideas; e.g. KKK, Nazis.
But usually the norms are not too bad, it’s just the ideas that are ridiculous (moderate religion in a nutshell). So it definitely makes sense to make a distinction for practical purposes.
Yes, agreed with all of this. Though as you suggest, the two can overlap. “Give million dollars to an organization that will freeze your head when you die” can become a group norm, and “refrain from political examples, personal attacks, irrational arguments, etc.” can be a group idea. And as you say, it is common for one to be confused for the other, sometimes deliberately for rhetorical effect.