What about those few of us who don’t believe that the Simulation Argument is most probably true ? Don’t get me wrong, it could be true, I just don’t see any evidence to suppose that it is.
On that note, I always understood the word “theism” to mean “gods exist, and they interfere in the workings of our Universe in detectable ways”. Isn’t someone who believes in entirely unfalsifiable gods functionally equivalent to an atheist ?
Isn’t someone who believes in entirely unfalsifiable gods functionally equivalent to an atheist ?
If I believe in unfalsifiable gods who prefer that I behave in certain ways (though they do not provide me with any evidence of that preference), and I value the preferences of those gods enough to change my behavior accordingly, then I will behave differently than if I do not believe in those gods or do not value their preferences.
That alone would make Dave-the-atheist not functionally equivalent to Dave-the-theist-without-evidence, wouldn’t it?
Technically, yes, but atheists also behave differently from each other, for all kinds of reasons. If Dave-the-theist truly believes that his gods are unfalsifiable, then he probably won’t be seeking to convert others to his faith (since attempting to do so would be futile by definition). At that point, he’s just like any atheist with an opinion.
Why does the unfalsifiability of god show that believers won’t proselytize?
A truly unfalsifiable god does not, by definition, provide any evidence of its existence. Thus, there’s no “good news” to be spread, since a world with the god in it looks exactly the same as a world with the god.
Sure there is. For example, the Good News might be “God will reward those who worship him as follows: {blah blah blah} after they die.” Unfalsifiable, but certainly good to know if true.
The fact that you demand evidence before adopting such a belief is of no particular interest to Dave-the-theist-without-evidence.
“God will reward those who worship him as follows: {blah blah blah} after they die.”
This is a falsifiable claim, assuming that we have some evidence of the afterlife. If we have no such evidence, then, in order for this to count as good news, the theist would first have to convince me that there’s an afterlife.
The fact that you demand evidence before adopting such a belief is of no particular interest to Dave-the-theist-without-evidence.
In the absence of evidence, how is he going to convince anyone that his unfalsifiable belief is true ?
Agreed that given evidence of the afterlife, it’s a falsifiable claim, and lacking such evidence it’s unfalsifiable. I know of no such evidence, so I conclude it’s unfalsifiable. Do you know of any such evidence? If not, do you also conclude that it’s unfalsifiable?
If we have no such evidence, then, in order for this to count as good news, the theist would first have to convince me that there’s an afterlife. [..] In the absence of evidence, how is he going to convince anyone that his unfalsifiable belief is true ?
What you seem to be implying is that there exist no (or negligible numbers of) people in the real world who can be convinced of claims for which there is no evidence, which is demonstrably false. Are you in fact asserting that, or am I completely misunderstanding you?
Do you know of any such evidence? If not, do you also conclude that it’s unfalsifiable?
Yes, I conclude that most kinds of afterlife are unfalsifiable. Some are falsifiable, but they are in the minority: for example, if your religion claims that the dead occasionally haunt the living from beyound the grave, that’s a falsifiable claim.
What you seem to be implying is that there exist no (or negligible numbers of) people in the real world who can be convinced of claims for which there is no evidence, which is demonstrably false.
Sort of. I would agree with this sentence as it is stated, with the caveat that what most people see as “evidence”, and what you and I see as “evidence”, are probably two different things. To use a crude example, most Creationists believe that the complexity of the natural world is evidence for God’s involvement in its creation. Many theists believe that the feelings and emotions they experience after (or during) prayer are caused by their gods’ explicit response to the prayer, which is also a kind of evidence.
Sure, you and I would probably discount these things as cognitive biases (well, I know I would), but that’s beside the point; what matters here is that the theist thinks that the evidence is there, and thus his gods are falsifiable. When theists proselytize, they often use these kinds of evidence to convert people.
By contrast, someone who believes in an explicitly unfalsifiable god would not attribute any effects (mental or physical) to its existence, and thus does not have a workable way to convince others. The best he could say is, “you should believe as I do because it’s a neat self-improvement technique”, or something to that extent.
(shrug) Sure, if we expand the meaning of “evidence” to include things we don’t consider evidence, then I agree that my earlier statement becomes false.
Who are “we”, in this case ? A typical theist does believe that he has evidence for his falsifiable god. He may be wrong about this, of course (and most probably is), but that’s a matter for another debate. I was under the impression, though, that we were discussing atypical theists: those who believe that their gods are explicitly unfalsifiable. They are deliberately stating, “there’s no way anyone could determine by any means whether my gods exist or not”; this is directly opposite to stating something like, “look at how complex life is, only a god could’ve created all that”.
Hm. It’s possible that I’ve lost the thread of what we’re discussing.
It seems to me to follow from what you’ve said that a theist who explicitly believes their belief in god is unfalsifiable, therefore necessarily explicitly believes there to be no evidence for that belief, therefore necessarily believes that proselytizing others is necessarily futile (since everyone requires evidence to adopt such beliefs, and therefore they believe that everyone requires evidence, and since they know they have no evidence, they know they cannot convince anyone), therefore is functionally equivalent to an atheist, who is functionally defined by their unwillingness to proselytize.
What about those few of us who don’t believe that the Simulation Argument is most probably true ? Don’t get me wrong, it could be true, I just don’t see any evidence to suppose that it is.
On that note, I always understood the word “theism” to mean “gods exist, and they interfere in the workings of our Universe in detectable ways”. Isn’t someone who believes in entirely unfalsifiable gods functionally equivalent to an atheist ?
If I believe in unfalsifiable gods who prefer that I behave in certain ways (though they do not provide me with any evidence of that preference), and I value the preferences of those gods enough to change my behavior accordingly, then I will behave differently than if I do not believe in those gods or do not value their preferences.
That alone would make Dave-the-atheist not functionally equivalent to Dave-the-theist-without-evidence, wouldn’t it?
Technically, yes, but atheists also behave differently from each other, for all kinds of reasons. If Dave-the-theist truly believes that his gods are unfalsifiable, then he probably won’t be seeking to convert others to his faith (since attempting to do so would be futile by definition). At that point, he’s just like any atheist with an opinion.
Why does the unfalsifiability of god show that believers won’t proselytize?
A truly unfalsifiable god does not, by definition, provide any evidence of its existence. Thus, there’s no “good news” to be spread, since a world with the god in it looks exactly the same as a world with the god.
Sure there is. For example, the Good News might be “God will reward those who worship him as follows: {blah blah blah} after they die.” Unfalsifiable, but certainly good to know if true.
The fact that you demand evidence before adopting such a belief is of no particular interest to Dave-the-theist-without-evidence.
This is a falsifiable claim, assuming that we have some evidence of the afterlife. If we have no such evidence, then, in order for this to count as good news, the theist would first have to convince me that there’s an afterlife.
In the absence of evidence, how is he going to convince anyone that his unfalsifiable belief is true ?
Agreed that given evidence of the afterlife, it’s a falsifiable claim, and lacking such evidence it’s unfalsifiable.
I know of no such evidence, so I conclude it’s unfalsifiable.
Do you know of any such evidence?
If not, do you also conclude that it’s unfalsifiable?
What you seem to be implying is that there exist no (or negligible numbers of) people in the real world who can be convinced of claims for which there is no evidence, which is demonstrably false. Are you in fact asserting that, or am I completely misunderstanding you?
Yes, I conclude that most kinds of afterlife are unfalsifiable. Some are falsifiable, but they are in the minority: for example, if your religion claims that the dead occasionally haunt the living from beyound the grave, that’s a falsifiable claim.
Sort of. I would agree with this sentence as it is stated, with the caveat that what most people see as “evidence”, and what you and I see as “evidence”, are probably two different things. To use a crude example, most Creationists believe that the complexity of the natural world is evidence for God’s involvement in its creation. Many theists believe that the feelings and emotions they experience after (or during) prayer are caused by their gods’ explicit response to the prayer, which is also a kind of evidence.
Sure, you and I would probably discount these things as cognitive biases (well, I know I would), but that’s beside the point; what matters here is that the theist thinks that the evidence is there, and thus his gods are falsifiable. When theists proselytize, they often use these kinds of evidence to convert people.
By contrast, someone who believes in an explicitly unfalsifiable god would not attribute any effects (mental or physical) to its existence, and thus does not have a workable way to convince others. The best he could say is, “you should believe as I do because it’s a neat self-improvement technique”, or something to that extent.
(shrug) Sure, if we expand the meaning of “evidence” to include things we don’t consider evidence, then I agree that my earlier statement becomes false.
Who are “we”, in this case ? A typical theist does believe that he has evidence for his falsifiable god. He may be wrong about this, of course (and most probably is), but that’s a matter for another debate. I was under the impression, though, that we were discussing atypical theists: those who believe that their gods are explicitly unfalsifiable. They are deliberately stating, “there’s no way anyone could determine by any means whether my gods exist or not”; this is directly opposite to stating something like, “look at how complex life is, only a god could’ve created all that”.
Hm. It’s possible that I’ve lost the thread of what we’re discussing.
It seems to me to follow from what you’ve said that a theist who explicitly believes their belief in god is unfalsifiable, therefore necessarily explicitly believes there to be no evidence for that belief, therefore necessarily believes that proselytizing others is necessarily futile (since everyone requires evidence to adopt such beliefs, and therefore they believe that everyone requires evidence, and since they know they have no evidence, they know they cannot convince anyone), therefore is functionally equivalent to an atheist, who is functionally defined by their unwillingness to proselytize.
Have I followed that correctly?
If not, can you provide a corrected summary?