At least one of us. (He might hold some intermediate view of himself that would surprise us both.)
Here is an article he wrote. Some brief quotations, which seem to me like things he wouldn’t have written if he numbered himself among the scientists:
there is great diversity in terminology and underlying assumptions about what climate is and how scholars analyze it, [...] about environmental historians’ responsibility to engage the general public and policymakers, about whether historians use or criticize contemporary natural sciences, and about our capacity and willingness to collaborate with scientists, engineers, and other disciplines even beyond the academy.
(“Our capacity and willingness to collaborate with scientists”.)
This is why we need more environmental historians thinking about present-day climate change—and why collaboration among historians, scientists, and modelers is essential, and doable.
(Not, e.g., “why we need more people like me who are both scientists and historians”, but collaboration between these groups. The general thrust of the paper is that scientists need to listen to environmental historians, who have useful and distinctive things to contribute.)
I can’t find anything Carey’s written, or anything written about Carey, that suggests to me that he would call himself a scientist.[1] Why do you think he would? (Is it, e.g., just out of a sense that science is high-status and therefore people doing anything with any connection to science will tend to call themselves scientists?)
[1] … Except for a passing mention of “social scientists” in the paper I linked above, which may indicate that he reckons historians “social scientists”. If he defines “scientists” so broadly as to include historians generally then meh, maybe he would call himself a scientist, but he would probably also willingly agree that he isn’t what-most-people-call-scientists. My guess is still that he would answer “no” to “are you a scientist?”, though as I say he might want to hedge.
This is a silly discussion, but, briefly, try to look at the situation from the inside point of view. Carey is a professor at a university, he gets grants from NSF, he publishes books and papers in peer-reviewed journals. A “scientist” is a high-status label and refusing to call himself a scientist would banish him to the bottom of the totem pole in his social circles.
You probably think of science as “hard sciences”. But there are also soft sciences, aka social sciences and I believe historians, sociologists, etc. would not take kindly to being told that what they do is not science. Their internal perspective is that they engage in science, not in diddling with pot shards in their navels.
(Is there something about my style of posting that encourages people on LW to bulverize me so much?)
Anyway, you could simply have answered yes to my question “Is it, e.g., just out of a sense that science is high-status and therefore people doing anything with any connection to science will tend to call themselves scientists?”.
I’d try actually asking Carey, but right at the moment I think it would be tactless. (The story of the feminist glaciology paper is doing the rounds and I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s deluged by people asking “do you consider yourself a scientist?” with hostile intent.)
Here’s an interview with Carey. His initial description of himself is as a “historian of science and environmental historian”, but later on he does refer to “social scientists like myself”.
So, you were right and I was wrong (in, at least, a way I predicted I might be): he does, at least in some contexts, call himself a scientist.
At least one of us. (He might hold some intermediate view of himself that would surprise us both.)
Here is an article he wrote. Some brief quotations, which seem to me like things he wouldn’t have written if he numbered himself among the scientists:
(“Our capacity and willingness to collaborate with scientists”.)
(Not, e.g., “why we need more people like me who are both scientists and historians”, but collaboration between these groups. The general thrust of the paper is that scientists need to listen to environmental historians, who have useful and distinctive things to contribute.)
I can’t find anything Carey’s written, or anything written about Carey, that suggests to me that he would call himself a scientist.[1] Why do you think he would? (Is it, e.g., just out of a sense that science is high-status and therefore people doing anything with any connection to science will tend to call themselves scientists?)
[1] … Except for a passing mention of “social scientists” in the paper I linked above, which may indicate that he reckons historians “social scientists”. If he defines “scientists” so broadly as to include historians generally then meh, maybe he would call himself a scientist, but he would probably also willingly agree that he isn’t what-most-people-call-scientists. My guess is still that he would answer “no” to “are you a scientist?”, though as I say he might want to hedge.
This is a silly discussion, but, briefly, try to look at the situation from the inside point of view. Carey is a professor at a university, he gets grants from NSF, he publishes books and papers in peer-reviewed journals. A “scientist” is a high-status label and refusing to call himself a scientist would banish him to the bottom of the totem pole in his social circles.
You probably think of science as “hard sciences”. But there are also soft sciences, aka social sciences and I believe historians, sociologists, etc. would not take kindly to being told that what they do is not science. Their internal perspective is that they engage in science, not in diddling with pot shards in their navels.
Look at yourself :-) and avoid the typical mind fallacy.
(Is there something about my style of posting that encourages people on LW to bulverize me so much?)
Anyway, you could simply have answered yes to my question “Is it, e.g., just out of a sense that science is high-status and therefore people doing anything with any connection to science will tend to call themselves scientists?”.
I’d try actually asking Carey, but right at the moment I think it would be tactless. (The story of the feminist glaciology paper is doing the rounds and I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s deluged by people asking “do you consider yourself a scientist?” with hostile intent.)
Here’s an interview with Carey. His initial description of himself is as a “historian of science and environmental historian”, but later on he does refer to “social scientists like myself”.
So, you were right and I was wrong (in, at least, a way I predicted I might be): he does, at least in some contexts, call himself a scientist.