This gives the impression that the upper-middle class support wealth redistribution at higher rates than the lower-middle class. I’m open minded but I would be quite surprised if that were actually true.
I wouldn’t. It also depends a lot on what one means by wealth redistribution. Which programs? Bank bailouts? Medicare? Medicaid? Social Security? Foodstamps? Mortgage interest deduction?
I’d bet that the bank bailouts were only supported by a minority of the population, and that minority was clustered in the higher incomes.
That doesn’t mean there is nothing to explain—the lower-middle class still seems to oppose measures that would objectively make them richer at surprisingly high rates.
The lower middle class opposes measures that supporters claim will make them better off. If they don’t believe that government redistribution will make them better off, there is very little to explain.
I wouldn’t. It also depends a lot on what one means by wealth redistribution. Which programs? Bank bailouts? Medicare? Medicaid? Social Security? Foodstamps? Mortgage interest deduction?
Well, we mean
policies that redistribute wealth to the poor
So I’m not sure why you picked the bank bailouts as an example. They were widely seen as the exact opposite of what we’re talking about. Medicaid, food-stamps, higher minimum wage, state welfare, progressive taxation etc. is what we’re talking about. You’re welcome to try to find issue polls with demographic breakdowns but absent that I don’t know why we’d expect the publics views on redistributing wealth to the poor to differ that substantially from the degree to which they support political parties associated with redistributing wealth to the poor. See the family income section.
The lower middle class opposes measures that supporters claim will make them better off. If they don’t believe that government redistribution will make them better off, there is very little to explain.
We’re trying to figure out why people believe what they do. If someone is in a tax bracket that would have a lower rate in plan A than in plan B it is a good hypothesis that the reason they support A over B is self-interest. Now it may be the case that B would actually be better for this person for obscure, hard-to-explain reasons. If the person grasps those reasons and gives those reasons then we have a good explanation. But if this person insists that B will make them better off but does not seem to have good reasons or merely parrots partisan economists it seems like there is still quite a bit to explain—even if their beliefs are correct. This goes for the poor as well as the rich.
So I’m not sure why you picked the bank bailouts as an example. They were widely seen as the exact opposite of what we’re talking about.
Uh huh. Granting the government power to redistribute wealth “for the public good” had the consequence of the poor getting saddled with trillions in debt. Maybe they don’t believe they benefit from such a system.
“Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.”
Frederic Bastiat
Maybe the working poor believe that the wealth redistribution game is a negative sum game, and advocate that we don’t play it. Yes, they might fight and claw at the trough, and get some portion of the slop. Why should they believe they’ll be more successful in that fight than the rich and well connected, particularly after just witnessing the rich and well connected walk off with trillions?
It’s like free speech. There is a lot of speech that offends me. I wish people didn’t believe that rubbish. But I wouldn’t want to empower the government to ban such speech, because having granted the government such power, why would I believe that would never be turned against speech I approve of?
This has always been the puzzle of the Revolutionary Vanguard. Why don’t the Proles support us, when our policies benefit them? Maybe, the Proles think the policies of the Revolutionary Vanguard won’t benefit them. There’s no puzzle to solve unless you just can’t conceive that the Revolutionary Vanguard may be wrong.
The only position I’m arguing against is that it is a mystery why the working poor don’t support government wealth redistribution. It isn’t a mystery to me, and I gave my solution to the supposed conundrum. I think that’s responsive.
This has always been the puzzle of the Revolutionary Vanguard. Why don’t the Proles support us, when our policies benefit them? Maybe, the Proles think the policies of the Revolutionary Vanguard won’t benefit them. There’s no puzzle to solve unless you just can’t conceive that the Revolutionary Vanguard may be wrong.
This is a very good argument. But on the other hand those pushing for wealth redistributions are (today) far from radical, basically they echo establishment sentiments. And the same people look back on history and see that this same establishment has always eventually “made the right choice” (or at least that is the publicly accepted narrative).
This is a very good argument. But on the other hand those pushing for wealth redistributions are (today) far from radical, basically the establishment. People look back on history and see that this establishment has always eventually “made the right choice” (or at least that is the publicly accepted narrative).
I didn’t mean to imply that I thought they were revolutionaries. It’s a bit of black comedy that the people who style themselves as radicals speaking truth to power are completely orthodox defenders of The Man. It’s a similar scene with Christians on Fox News, feeling persecuted and martyred in the US for their faith whenever there is the tiniest pushback against them having their way. They’ve both got their narratives playing as the soundtrack to their lives, no matter how incongruous to reality.
With the Revolutionary Vanguard cracks, I was getting at the heads I win, tails you lose nature of the Vanguard’s faith in their program. If the Proles don’t agree that the Vanguards program, the obvious reason, that the Proles don’t think it’s good for them, is overlooked, and instead theories about the “false consciousness” of the Proles sprout like mushrooms on a rotting tree stump.
I wouldn’t. It also depends a lot on what one means by wealth redistribution. Which programs? Bank bailouts? Medicare? Medicaid? Social Security? Foodstamps? Mortgage interest deduction?
I’d bet that the bank bailouts were only supported by a minority of the population, and that minority was clustered in the higher incomes.
The lower middle class opposes measures that supporters claim will make them better off. If they don’t believe that government redistribution will make them better off, there is very little to explain.
Well, we mean
So I’m not sure why you picked the bank bailouts as an example. They were widely seen as the exact opposite of what we’re talking about. Medicaid, food-stamps, higher minimum wage, state welfare, progressive taxation etc. is what we’re talking about. You’re welcome to try to find issue polls with demographic breakdowns but absent that I don’t know why we’d expect the publics views on redistributing wealth to the poor to differ that substantially from the degree to which they support political parties associated with redistributing wealth to the poor. See the family income section.
We’re trying to figure out why people believe what they do. If someone is in a tax bracket that would have a lower rate in plan A than in plan B it is a good hypothesis that the reason they support A over B is self-interest. Now it may be the case that B would actually be better for this person for obscure, hard-to-explain reasons. If the person grasps those reasons and gives those reasons then we have a good explanation. But if this person insists that B will make them better off but does not seem to have good reasons or merely parrots partisan economists it seems like there is still quite a bit to explain—even if their beliefs are correct. This goes for the poor as well as the rich.
Uh huh. Granting the government power to redistribute wealth “for the public good” had the consequence of the poor getting saddled with trillions in debt. Maybe they don’t believe they benefit from such a system.
“Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.”
Frederic Bastiat
Maybe the working poor believe that the wealth redistribution game is a negative sum game, and advocate that we don’t play it. Yes, they might fight and claw at the trough, and get some portion of the slop. Why should they believe they’ll be more successful in that fight than the rich and well connected, particularly after just witnessing the rich and well connected walk off with trillions?
It’s like free speech. There is a lot of speech that offends me. I wish people didn’t believe that rubbish. But I wouldn’t want to empower the government to ban such speech, because having granted the government such power, why would I believe that would never be turned against speech I approve of?
This has always been the puzzle of the Revolutionary Vanguard. Why don’t the Proles support us, when our policies benefit them? Maybe, the Proles think the policies of the Revolutionary Vanguard won’t benefit them. There’s no puzzle to solve unless you just can’t conceive that the Revolutionary Vanguard may be wrong.
This is both non-responsive and arguing against a position I don’t actually hold. I lean ‘liberaltarian’, you’re not arguing with Thomas Frank.
The only position I’m arguing against is that it is a mystery why the working poor don’t support government wealth redistribution. It isn’t a mystery to me, and I gave my solution to the supposed conundrum. I think that’s responsive.
This is a very good argument. But on the other hand those pushing for wealth redistributions are (today) far from radical, basically they echo establishment sentiments. And the same people look back on history and see that this same establishment has always eventually “made the right choice” (or at least that is the publicly accepted narrative).
Don’t forget people do have a progoverment bias.
I didn’t mean to imply that I thought they were revolutionaries. It’s a bit of black comedy that the people who style themselves as radicals speaking truth to power are completely orthodox defenders of The Man. It’s a similar scene with Christians on Fox News, feeling persecuted and martyred in the US for their faith whenever there is the tiniest pushback against them having their way. They’ve both got their narratives playing as the soundtrack to their lives, no matter how incongruous to reality.
With the Revolutionary Vanguard cracks, I was getting at the heads I win, tails you lose nature of the Vanguard’s faith in their program. If the Proles don’t agree that the Vanguards program, the obvious reason, that the Proles don’t think it’s good for them, is overlooked, and instead theories about the “false consciousness” of the Proles sprout like mushrooms on a rotting tree stump.