This is an unnecessarily snarky addition to the comment that’s disappointing to see (and doesn’t even make sense, since mine is neither a top comment, nor does it mention studies).
How should I reply to such a flagrant double standard, where a Twitter screenshot calling out Google is incontrovertible ‘disinterested’ evidence never to be questioned, and any objection is instead required to be multiple independent third-party studies?
The original post was by a disinterested third party sharing a screenshot.
They were not disinterested in the least! They were specifically ‘calling out’ and shaming Google for it, and it worked brilliantly in earning them huge fake internet points. (Someone who left Google and is mentioning it in an aside years later which no one noticed, that’s much closer to disinterested.)
With the evidence available to us, something similar to world (B) seems much more likely than world (A).
No, it doesn’t. A is vastly more plausible. Happens every time. You don’t believe the seal thing? Fine, look at the recent Twitter cropping thing! You see anyone pointing out that the social media campaigns about how biased the cropping algorithm were wildly incorrect and exaggerated in every way, and missed the actual pro-woman biases that Twitter’s followup study showed? (You wanted a study...) Or Tay! AFAICT, Tay could not learn, and so the media narrative is impossible. Did you hear that from anyone yet? Or how about the ‘arrested because facial recognition software accused them of shoplifting’? It’s literally in the original media article that they were arrested because a human told the cops to do so; did you hear that from anyone yet? World B is exactly what happens frequently. Did you not pay attention to how things like Timnit Gebru’s ultimatum was completely laundered out of media accounts? Or how about Mitchell, where media outlets quoting the Google statement edited out the part of the statement mentioning, y’know, what she did to get fired (dumping docs to leak to friendly reporters)? You’ve seen the factoids about how much CO2 training a DL model costs, did you see any of the followups like “oops we overestimated the cost by 10,000%” or “actually the cost is 0 because the datacenters use renewable energy”? How about that time that a prominent activist and Nvidia VP shared a literal enemies list for her followers to coordinate attacks on, which you could earn membership on for liking the wrong tweet? Do you not pay any attention to how activists and the media work? Have you not noticed the techlash or the ideological affiliations of reporters? We live in world A, not world B.
I believe there’s a conflict-vs-mistake thing going on here. I saw this as a specific case where the probabilities don’t line up the way your comment assumes they do. You seem to be from the beginning assuming I’m opposing an entire worldview and seeing it as some attack.
where a Twitter screenshot calling out Google is incontrovertible ‘disinterested’ evidence never to be questioned
Behold, the Straw Man! Today for his trick, he turns “However small X’s level of evidence is, Y has even weaker evidence” into “X is incontrovertible evidence never to be questioned”.
I considered the original tweet, the fact that Google did not refute it, and the claim that Google blocked ape-related tags from Photos for years afterwards (with its own attached probability), and updated my inner measure of probability of this being true. And I find that the statement from the ex-Googler provides even weaker evidence to update based on. Nothing is “never to be questioned” here.
any objection is instead required to be multiple independent third-party studies?
Again a thing I didn’t say, and you keep repeating.
They were not disinterested in the least! They were specifically ‘calling out’ and shaming Google for it
A “claim from a disinterested party” means someone previously disinterested, someone where our prior assumptions can be close to assuming they are disinterested. A police officer is considered disinterested in a case if their family and friends are not involved in the case, and so can be assigned the case. It makes no sense to say “they’ve been assigned to the case now, so they’re not a disinterested party”!
They were specifically ‘calling out’ and shaming Google for it and it worked brilliantly in earning them huge fake internet points.
This is the original tweetpointing out the issue. To me it just looks like a user casually pointing out a problem with a tool they use. Not everyone is obsessed all the time with culture wars and internet points.
(Someone who left Google and is mentioning it in an aside years later which no one noticed, that’s much closer to disinterested.)
Oh by the way, I found evidence that this author tweeted this seals claim back at the time as part of the Twitter thread about this. Still without any links or images, but that helped update my probabilities a little bit (as I had believed that part of the problem might be that it came two years later, as mentioned before). I wish that’s what this conversation had consisted of, actual evidence to try to arrive at the truth, instead of straw men and outright false claims.
The last paragraph has little to do with the claims here, unless you’re dumping an entire opposing worldview on me, and arguing against that imaginary person. For the record, I am much closer to your worldview regarding these issues and have noticed most of the things you mentioned. It’s just that in this instance even with that background there isn’t good enough evidence to believe the media suppressed some narrative.
My original comment has served its purpose to provide additional context for those who want it, and I don’t think further discussion with you here will be productive. Thanks for all the fish.
How should I reply to such a flagrant double standard, where a Twitter screenshot calling out Google is incontrovertible ‘disinterested’ evidence never to be questioned, and any objection is instead required to be multiple independent third-party studies?
They were not disinterested in the least! They were specifically ‘calling out’ and shaming Google for it, and it worked brilliantly in earning them huge fake internet points. (Someone who left Google and is mentioning it in an aside years later which no one noticed, that’s much closer to disinterested.)
No, it doesn’t. A is vastly more plausible. Happens every time. You don’t believe the seal thing? Fine, look at the recent Twitter cropping thing! You see anyone pointing out that the social media campaigns about how biased the cropping algorithm were wildly incorrect and exaggerated in every way, and missed the actual pro-woman biases that Twitter’s followup study showed? (You wanted a study...) Or Tay! AFAICT, Tay could not learn, and so the media narrative is impossible. Did you hear that from anyone yet? Or how about the ‘arrested because facial recognition software accused them of shoplifting’? It’s literally in the original media article that they were arrested because a human told the cops to do so; did you hear that from anyone yet? World B is exactly what happens frequently. Did you not pay attention to how things like Timnit Gebru’s ultimatum was completely laundered out of media accounts? Or how about Mitchell, where media outlets quoting the Google statement edited out the part of the statement mentioning, y’know, what she did to get fired (dumping docs to leak to friendly reporters)? You’ve seen the factoids about how much CO2 training a DL model costs, did you see any of the followups like “oops we overestimated the cost by 10,000%” or “actually the cost is 0 because the datacenters use renewable energy”? How about that time that a prominent activist and Nvidia VP shared a literal enemies list for her followers to coordinate attacks on, which you could earn membership on for liking the wrong tweet? Do you not pay any attention to how activists and the media work? Have you not noticed the techlash or the ideological affiliations of reporters? We live in world A, not world B.
I believe there’s a conflict-vs-mistake thing going on here. I saw this as a specific case where the probabilities don’t line up the way your comment assumes they do. You seem to be from the beginning assuming I’m opposing an entire worldview and seeing it as some attack.
Behold, the Straw Man! Today for his trick, he turns “However small X’s level of evidence is, Y has even weaker evidence” into “X is incontrovertible evidence never to be questioned”.
I considered the original tweet, the fact that Google did not refute it, and the claim that Google blocked ape-related tags from Photos for years afterwards (with its own attached probability), and updated my inner measure of probability of this being true. And I find that the statement from the ex-Googler provides even weaker evidence to update based on. Nothing is “never to be questioned” here.
Again a thing I didn’t say, and you keep repeating.
A “claim from a disinterested party” means someone previously disinterested, someone where our prior assumptions can be close to assuming they are disinterested. A police officer is considered disinterested in a case if their family and friends are not involved in the case, and so can be assigned the case. It makes no sense to say “they’ve been assigned to the case now, so they’re not a disinterested party”!
This is the original tweet pointing out the issue. To me it just looks like a user casually pointing out a problem with a tool they use. Not everyone is obsessed all the time with culture wars and internet points.
Oh by the way, I found evidence that this author tweeted this seals claim back at the time as part of the Twitter thread about this. Still without any links or images, but that helped update my probabilities a little bit (as I had believed that part of the problem might be that it came two years later, as mentioned before). I wish that’s what this conversation had consisted of, actual evidence to try to arrive at the truth, instead of straw men and outright false claims.
The last paragraph has little to do with the claims here, unless you’re dumping an entire opposing worldview on me, and arguing against that imaginary person. For the record, I am much closer to your worldview regarding these issues and have noticed most of the things you mentioned. It’s just that in this instance even with that background there isn’t good enough evidence to believe the media suppressed some narrative.
My original comment has served its purpose to provide additional context for those who want it, and I don’t think further discussion with you here will be productive. Thanks for all the fish.