On the other hand the modern European politics (there’s not terribly much difference between “left” and “right”) mixes market-based, government-based, and other solutions, based on what is estimated to work best, not on any big ideology, which it lost long time ago, even though it clings to all kinds of labels like “social democratic” or “christian democratic” etc.
I’m not sure what you meant by “based on what is estimated to work best,” but I would say that modern European politics is not that different from modern American politics, or politics fifty years ago, in that politics can be described as the result of pre-existing political institutions, irrational, ignorant, and unenlightened voters, corruption and special interest groups. Well, things could be a lot worse. We could live in Myanmar or Sudan.
If European politics has gotten less ideological, is that (to a first approximation) because political institutions changed or because voters became less ideological?
As far as I can tell, European politics (as far as it’s even a valid label) is different from American politics. I didn’t do any proper research, so this might be just impressions. From what I can see, many Americans would say they “are Democrat/Republican/etc.”, Europeans would only say they “vote Labour/Conservative/etc.”, Europeans are much more likely to switch votes between elections, American political parties talk a lot about ideologies (freedom, fairness, Constitution, Founding Fathers, Christian nation, this or that is socialism, and so on and so on) what is extremely unusual in Europe.
By the way your description of what politics is like while not invalid seems extremely biased. As far as I can tell politics is mostly about day to day dealing with mundane problems of managing the state, and balancing of interests of different groups in it. Yes, the things you’re talking about are there, but if someone described modern capitalism as consisting of exploitation of third world workers, destruction of environment, corruption, union busting, focus on quarterly profits over sustainability, gender discrimination, race to the bottom, oligopolies, brainwashing consumers etc. is would also be true, but about as biased.
When speaking about politics in general, and current governments in particular, my rhetoric tends to be negative and focus on problems. This is because I hope that talking about the problems will get people to help fix or work around them.
It is my impression that the public, though perhaps not people on LW, have too much faith that a) they know what good public policy is, and b) that current policy is good. You would probably respond, and would be correct to respond, that government, and the political process, can do good. This should be recognized… I am not a libertarian extremist.
I know a fair bit about American politics, and the disciplines of political science/economics/sociology. But I know little about Europe, and I should have admitted that straight up. I hadn’t / still don’t fully understand the differences in how ideological politics is across the Atlantic. Don’t people trumpet Rights-based claims a lot? Or draw on what are considered admirable nationalistic characteristics in framing debates? Or talk about the dangers of neo-liberalism or capitalism? I’ll have to think/read about that more. Thanks for the suggestion.
By focusing on problems of government and ignoring problems of modern capitalism which has arguably far more influence (both positive and negative) on our daily lives, and upon which we have a lot less control, you’re highly biasing the debate. It’s not just you—I would say people in general are a lot more critical of government policies than of consequences of current form of capitalism (which has nothing to do with libertarian/econ101 fairytale free market).
As for European politics (I’m basing it mostly about Poland, UK, and Germany, as opposed to States, but my understanding is that the situation is very similar in most European countries):
Admirable nationalistic characteristics—never, that’s purely American thing, European politicians tend to be extremely shy about national issues, there’s no flag waving etc.
Rights-based claims—not really, you can hear often that some policies are unjust toward some group, or cause some group suffering, or some policies would be beneficial for some group, but it’s pretty very rarely about abstract “right to X” like American debates are framed.
Talking about dangers of neo-liberalism—this happens, usually in terms of specific problem (like mistreatment of employees, or job loses, or environmental issues etc.), more often in realistic “companies only care about profit, so we need to regulate things about them that we care about”, rarely in a generic “neo-liberal capitalism is bad”, but why do you include it as ideological? Should neo-liberalism be a taboo subject?
Admirable nationalistic characteristics—never, that’s purely American thing
Really? nationalism is a purely American thing?
Companies care about profits which makes them care about their consumers, their suppliers, their workers, and their congressmen (for better or for worse). But regulations are obviously necessary, and I like public goods.
Again, I think your argument about U.S. and European politics differ is interesting, I should look into that.
Right now, yeah, pretty much. In Europe the most you can find is politicians of country X talking about protecting “X jobs”, but on “we look after our interests, others look after theirs” basis, not on any sense of superiority and uniqueness that is so prevalent in American political propaganda.
Nationalism may be less potent in Europe than the U.S., but there are other countries in the world. And my impression is that, thankfully, nationalism is less potent in the U.S. than in many of them.
You have a point, I only looked at Western democracies, U.S. is an outlier in this set, but there’s plenty of countries with a lot worse nationalism than U.S. if you look outside the set.
I think that both promoting and criticizing neo-liberalism are fairly ideological projects. I wouldn’t taboo either of them, but I would like to see politicians/journalists/voters more focused on discussing the costs and benefits of specific policies which I think would lead people to be more consequentialist.
My point was that problems here are rarely framed as pro-neoliberalism vs anti-neoliberalism, the focus tends to be on specifics, which I would say is more productive.
I agree on everything but the dangers of neo-liberalism. This seems to me to be ever present, also in relatively succesful countries like Germany and France. Boo neo-liberalism. A bit like inequality.
Ideology in the American sense is pretty much relegated to fringe movements.
I live in Denmark, but follow politics in major European countries.
I’m not sure what you meant by “based on what is estimated to work best,” but I would say that modern European politics is not that different from modern American politics, or politics fifty years ago, in that politics can be described as the result of pre-existing political institutions, irrational, ignorant, and unenlightened voters, corruption and special interest groups. Well, things could be a lot worse. We could live in Myanmar or Sudan.
If European politics has gotten less ideological, is that (to a first approximation) because political institutions changed or because voters became less ideological?
As far as I can tell, European politics (as far as it’s even a valid label) is different from American politics. I didn’t do any proper research, so this might be just impressions. From what I can see, many Americans would say they “are Democrat/Republican/etc.”, Europeans would only say they “vote Labour/Conservative/etc.”, Europeans are much more likely to switch votes between elections, American political parties talk a lot about ideologies (freedom, fairness, Constitution, Founding Fathers, Christian nation, this or that is socialism, and so on and so on) what is extremely unusual in Europe.
By the way your description of what politics is like while not invalid seems extremely biased. As far as I can tell politics is mostly about day to day dealing with mundane problems of managing the state, and balancing of interests of different groups in it. Yes, the things you’re talking about are there, but if someone described modern capitalism as consisting of exploitation of third world workers, destruction of environment, corruption, union busting, focus on quarterly profits over sustainability, gender discrimination, race to the bottom, oligopolies, brainwashing consumers etc. is would also be true, but about as biased.
When speaking about politics in general, and current governments in particular, my rhetoric tends to be negative and focus on problems. This is because I hope that talking about the problems will get people to help fix or work around them.
It is my impression that the public, though perhaps not people on LW, have too much faith that a) they know what good public policy is, and b) that current policy is good. You would probably respond, and would be correct to respond, that government, and the political process, can do good. This should be recognized… I am not a libertarian extremist.
I know a fair bit about American politics, and the disciplines of political science/economics/sociology. But I know little about Europe, and I should have admitted that straight up. I hadn’t / still don’t fully understand the differences in how ideological politics is across the Atlantic. Don’t people trumpet Rights-based claims a lot? Or draw on what are considered admirable nationalistic characteristics in framing debates? Or talk about the dangers of neo-liberalism or capitalism? I’ll have to think/read about that more. Thanks for the suggestion.
By focusing on problems of government and ignoring problems of modern capitalism which has arguably far more influence (both positive and negative) on our daily lives, and upon which we have a lot less control, you’re highly biasing the debate. It’s not just you—I would say people in general are a lot more critical of government policies than of consequences of current form of capitalism (which has nothing to do with libertarian/econ101 fairytale free market).
As for European politics (I’m basing it mostly about Poland, UK, and Germany, as opposed to States, but my understanding is that the situation is very similar in most European countries):
Admirable nationalistic characteristics—never, that’s purely American thing, European politicians tend to be extremely shy about national issues, there’s no flag waving etc.
Rights-based claims—not really, you can hear often that some policies are unjust toward some group, or cause some group suffering, or some policies would be beneficial for some group, but it’s pretty very rarely about abstract “right to X” like American debates are framed.
Talking about dangers of neo-liberalism—this happens, usually in terms of specific problem (like mistreatment of employees, or job loses, or environmental issues etc.), more often in realistic “companies only care about profit, so we need to regulate things about them that we care about”, rarely in a generic “neo-liberal capitalism is bad”, but why do you include it as ideological? Should neo-liberalism be a taboo subject?
Companies care about profits which makes them care about their consumers, their suppliers, their workers, and their congressmen (for better or for worse). But regulations are obviously necessary, and I like public goods.
Again, I think your argument about U.S. and European politics differ is interesting, I should look into that.
Right now, yeah, pretty much. In Europe the most you can find is politicians of country X talking about protecting “X jobs”, but on “we look after our interests, others look after theirs” basis, not on any sense of superiority and uniqueness that is so prevalent in American political propaganda.
Nationalism may be less potent in Europe than the U.S., but there are other countries in the world. And my impression is that, thankfully, nationalism is less potent in the U.S. than in many of them.
You have a point, I only looked at Western democracies, U.S. is an outlier in this set, but there’s plenty of countries with a lot worse nationalism than U.S. if you look outside the set.
I think that both promoting and criticizing neo-liberalism are fairly ideological projects. I wouldn’t taboo either of them, but I would like to see politicians/journalists/voters more focused on discussing the costs and benefits of specific policies which I think would lead people to be more consequentialist.
My point was that problems here are rarely framed as pro-neoliberalism vs anti-neoliberalism, the focus tends to be on specifics, which I would say is more productive.
I agree on everything but the dangers of neo-liberalism. This seems to me to be ever present, also in relatively succesful countries like Germany and France. Boo neo-liberalism. A bit like inequality.
Ideology in the American sense is pretty much relegated to fringe movements.
I live in Denmark, but follow politics in major European countries.