If you object strongly to the use of the term UBI in the post, you can replace it with something else. Then I make a number of substantive arguments.
Your response so far is ‘if it’s a UBI it won’t suffer from these issues by its very definition.‘
My response is ‘yes it will, because I believe any UBI policy proposal will degrade into something less than the ideal definition almost immediately when implemented at scale, or just emerge from existing welfare systems piecemeal rather than all at once. Then all the current concerning ‘bad things that happen to people who depend on government money’ will be issues to consider.
LessWrong is more about healthy epistemics than it is about political conclusions. Arguments about bad epistemic like redefining words matter independent of the conclusions.
When it comes to taking Australia as an example for how political dissent is treated, it’s worth noting that Australia takes actions like COVID-19 Quarantine camps that didn’t happen in Europe or the US.
This year in Germany we changed our system in the direction of UBI. While it’s still not UBI it does show the political viability of moving the system in that direction. If the FDP wouldn’t have been in the government we likely would have moved more into the UBI direction.
Apart from the change we see in Germany, how people who receive government money are treated also depends a lot on class. Various companies that get government subsidies are treated well. If you have a scenario where upper-class people think that they might receive UBI in the future you are likely to get laws that are a lot more friendly to UBI recipients.
You yourself said:
There’s also a growing part of journalism/civil society/activism concerned with an industry that “farms the unemployed” — billing the government for services it ostensibly provides to poor people, while in fact spending their time on coercive control and a moralistic form of discipline.
This is evidence of political movement in the direction of real UBI, but somehow you take it as evidence against UBI. This journalism/civil society/activism is the political muscle pushing for UBI and its power is growing.
Edit: removed a bad point.
If you object strongly to the use of the term UBI in the post, you can replace it with something else.
Then I make a number of substantive arguments.
Your response so far is ‘if it’s a UBI it won’t suffer from these issues by its very definition.‘
My response is ‘yes it will, because I believe any UBI policy proposal will degrade into something less than the ideal definition almost immediately when implemented at scale, or just emerge from existing welfare systems piecemeal rather than all at once. Then all the current concerning ‘bad things that happen to people who depend on government money’ will be issues to consider.
LessWrong is more about healthy epistemics than it is about political conclusions. Arguments about bad epistemic like redefining words matter independent of the conclusions.
When it comes to taking Australia as an example for how political dissent is treated, it’s worth noting that Australia takes actions like COVID-19 Quarantine camps that didn’t happen in Europe or the US.
This year in Germany we changed our system in the direction of UBI. While it’s still not UBI it does show the political viability of moving the system in that direction. If the FDP wouldn’t have been in the government we likely would have moved more into the UBI direction.
Apart from the change we see in Germany, how people who receive government money are treated also depends a lot on class. Various companies that get government subsidies are treated well. If you have a scenario where upper-class people think that they might receive UBI in the future you are likely to get laws that are a lot more friendly to UBI recipients.
You yourself said:
This is evidence of political movement in the direction of real UBI, but somehow you take it as evidence against UBI. This journalism/civil society/activism is the political muscle pushing for UBI and its power is growing.