You have also taken a specific situation and generalised it in ways that were not in fact being described in the post you are responding to.
I’m not so sure about that. Let’s compare the rate of sexual abuse by priests with that by social workers and/or school teachers. Religious blogger Vox Day after writes:
Note that in the United States, 10,667 people made allegations of child sexual abuse between 1950 and 2002 against 4,392 priests. This represented around 4 percent of the 109,694 priests who were ordained and active during that time. Given that there were 13,000 allegations of abuse in one state representing one-fifteenth of the U.S. population in 2009 alone, this indicates that state social workers are 951 times more likely to abuse a disabled person under their supervision than a Catholic priest was to sexually abuse a child.
(Note if you found Vox’s post offensive, explain why you have any more right to be offended then the Catholics you describe in your article.)
Vox Day’s post appears to be an example of the moral equivalence fallacy—saying “but we’re not as bad as X!” as a form of counterattack in debate.
“The “not as bad as” argument is a form of the moral equivalence fallacy. It’s popular with people who know perfectly well they’re doing something wrong. Being fully aware of this problem, they feel compelled to attempt to justify it, and they do so by pointing to other, usually worse, actions.”
Edit: Peter Lambert-Cole points out that Vox Day is not Catholic—I misremembered that he was. (Indeed, Mr Beale’s views on Catholics are more than a little idiosyncratic.) Sorry about that.
The “not as bad as argument” is a fallacy, but it’s one of those fallacies that seems to have a grain of truth: That being, if you’re going to point out a group flaw, you should definitely be pointing out that flaw if it’s more prominent in another group as well. In this case, if you’re pointing out pedophilia from priests, you should be pointing out social worker abuses as well.
Pointing out social worker abuses would be a direct comparison to the situation in the Catholic Church if the relevant federal government department, all the way up to the relevant cabinet-level position, was running a coverup of said abuses, including shuffling offenders to different districts rather than turning them into the authorities, and had been doing so over the course of decades. I am not aware that this is in fact the case, but if it is then references would be most welcomed.
Of course, Vox is not a Catholic so there is no “we” in his argument.
Moreover, this post is one in a series responding to New Atheists and others who explicitly argue that religious institutions, people and motivations are worse than the secular alternatives. He doesn’t introduce the comparison between religious and secular as a counterattack. He is responding to people who have already made that moral comparison and is showing that the calculus doesn’t work out as they claimed.
Vox Day’s post appears to be an example of the moral equivalence fallacy
While not vouching for the validity of the the specific points he is making, I see him attempting to make a moral argument with a valid form. Briefly: absence of correlation is evidence for absence of causation, and absence of causation is evidence for absence of moral blame.
What you see as a “we’re not as bad as X” argument, can be seen as an observation of lack of positive correlation. Suppose that a woman observes that while women commit a certain fraction of assaults, men, about equally numerous, commit a larger fraction of assaults (this is hypothetical—for all I know women do commit a larger fraction of assaults). You could interpret that as the woman making a “we’re not as bad as men” argument. But another interpretation is that there is a negative correlation between being a woman and committing assault. This is evidence for the claim that being a woman does not cause a person to commit assault.
(In contrast, being angry probably does correlate positively with committing assault, which would be evidence for the claim that being angry can cause a person to commit assault.)
So that covers the point that absence of correlation is evidence for absence of causation. As for the point that absence of causation is evidence for absence of moral blame, I trust that I don’t need to explain it.
I’m not so sure about that. Let’s compare the rate of sexual abuse by priests with that by social workers and/or school teachers. Religious blogger Vox Day after writes:
(Note if you found Vox’s post offensive, explain why you have any more right to be offended then the Catholics you describe in your article.)
Vox Day’s post appears to be an example of the moral equivalence fallacy—saying “but we’re not as bad as X!” as a form of counterattack in debate.
“The “not as bad as” argument is a form of the moral equivalence fallacy. It’s popular with people who know perfectly well they’re doing something wrong. Being fully aware of this problem, they feel compelled to attempt to justify it, and they do so by pointing to other, usually worse, actions.”
Edit: Peter Lambert-Cole points out that Vox Day is not Catholic—I misremembered that he was. (Indeed, Mr Beale’s views on Catholics are more than a little idiosyncratic.) Sorry about that.
The “not as bad as argument” is a fallacy, but it’s one of those fallacies that seems to have a grain of truth: That being, if you’re going to point out a group flaw, you should definitely be pointing out that flaw if it’s more prominent in another group as well. In this case, if you’re pointing out pedophilia from priests, you should be pointing out social worker abuses as well.
No, although the institution is eminently deserving.
This is not the opposite of the first one.
You are correct; that was my mistake. I’m uncertain how to word what I meant with that last line, so I will remove it.
Pointing out social worker abuses would be a direct comparison to the situation in the Catholic Church if the relevant federal government department, all the way up to the relevant cabinet-level position, was running a coverup of said abuses, including shuffling offenders to different districts rather than turning them into the authorities, and had been doing so over the course of decades. I am not aware that this is in fact the case, but if it is then references would be most welcomed.
Of course, Vox is not a Catholic so there is no “we” in his argument.
Moreover, this post is one in a series responding to New Atheists and others who explicitly argue that religious institutions, people and motivations are worse than the secular alternatives. He doesn’t introduce the comparison between religious and secular as a counterattack. He is responding to people who have already made that moral comparison and is showing that the calculus doesn’t work out as they claimed.
Comment corrected, thank you!
While not vouching for the validity of the the specific points he is making, I see him attempting to make a moral argument with a valid form. Briefly: absence of correlation is evidence for absence of causation, and absence of causation is evidence for absence of moral blame.
What you see as a “we’re not as bad as X” argument, can be seen as an observation of lack of positive correlation. Suppose that a woman observes that while women commit a certain fraction of assaults, men, about equally numerous, commit a larger fraction of assaults (this is hypothetical—for all I know women do commit a larger fraction of assaults). You could interpret that as the woman making a “we’re not as bad as men” argument. But another interpretation is that there is a negative correlation between being a woman and committing assault. This is evidence for the claim that being a woman does not cause a person to commit assault.
(In contrast, being angry probably does correlate positively with committing assault, which would be evidence for the claim that being angry can cause a person to commit assault.)
So that covers the point that absence of correlation is evidence for absence of causation. As for the point that absence of causation is evidence for absence of moral blame, I trust that I don’t need to explain it.