But the whole point of the process is to force anyone with an unpopular opinion to tug more and more gently, until finally they cease to tug at all. Then the PC hive mind can move the goalposts forward a bit, and start silencing a more moderate group of critics, and then another, and another, until ultimately the keepers of the received wisdom can say or do anything they like and no one dares to question them.
So no, I’ll continue on with my ironclad opposition to such transparent ploys. Anyone who whines about how their delicate sensibilities can’t stand an open, honest discussion of the facts of an issue has given up the right to have anyone care what they think.
But the whole point of the process is to force anyone with an unpopular opinion to tug more and more gently, until finally they cease to tug at all.
That is emphatically not the “point” of the process. That may be a consequence of the process, but it is not the point of it—and if it does happen to be a consequence of the process, it’s clear that you can be relied on to say so and we’ll negotiate a new equilibrium.
Then the PC hive mind can move the goalposts forward a bit, and start silencing a more moderate group of critics, and then another, and another, until ultimately the keepers of the received wisdom can say or do anything they like and no one dares to question them.
That… doesn’t appear to be what actually happens. Are there “PC hive minds”? definitely. But right now, they most assuredly don’t have the level of power that the old-guard conservatives do. Once they become the dominant force against rationality, if they don’t evolve into milder strains in response to evolutionary pressure on their own, then it makes sense to start fighting them too. But right now, I have a seriously hard time seeing them as worse than what they’re fighting.
(Who knows—maybe that makes me part of the PC hive mind myself? It would be good to get a solid argument for that, if it were the case; I’d rather not fall into a loyalty trap if I can avoid it).
I don’t want to death-spiral into a discussion of politics, so I’ll refrain from naming specific groups. But in most Western nations there are large, well-funded political activist groups that have consciously, explicitly adopting the tactic of aggressively claiming offense in order to silence their political opponents. While the members of such groups might be honestly dedicated to advancing some social cause, the leaders who encourage this behavior are professional politicians who are more likely to be motivated by issues of personal power and prestige.
So I’ll certainly concede that many individuals may feel genuinely offended in various cases, but I stand by my claim that most of the political organizations they belong to encourage constant claims of offense as a cynical power play.
If you don’t believe the ratcheting effect actually happens, I invite you to compare any random selection of political tracts from the 1950s, 1970s and 1990s. You’ll find that on many issues the terms of the debate have shifted to the point where opinions that were seriously discussed in the 1950s are now considered not just wrong but criminal offenses. This may seem like a good thing if you happen to agree with the opinion that’s currently be ascendant, but in most cases the change was not a result of one side marshaling superior evidence for their beliefs. Instead it’s all emotion and political gamesmanship, supplemented by naked censorship whenever one side manages to get a large enough majority.
You know, it sounds like you’re claiming that the fact that certain behaviors—generally accepted to be harmful—are no longer considered acceptable as proof of a conspiracy cynically piggybacking on this change to impose (self?)censorship , furthering some unspecified agenda. This feels like a strawman of your actual beliefs; could you explain what you meant?
Are there “PC hive minds”? definitely. But right now, they most assuredly don’t have the level of power that the old-guard conservatives do.
I don’t see a good reason to believe that’s true—or at least, whether “conservatives” hold power is strongly function of what place you’re talking about, and of what you mean by “power”. Remember, not everybody here lives in the US like I assume you do (I live in France, as a first approximation it looks like you’re all crazy over there).
The impression I get is that both liberals and conservatives enjoy whining about how they are oppressed by their all-powerful opponents, and if you add the right caveats (what kind of oppression and where), they might both be right.
In this thread, I’ve seen some distasteful justifications of “lying for the Greater Good” (or even just to defend “people in my coalition”), and in one (heavily downvoted) case, someone claiming they’d rather see the world destroyed rather than seeing it continue to exist with the current value systems … all of that under the flag of feminism or LGBT advocacy. That has done very little to convince me that the biggest threats are from “old guard conservatives”. It may be the case in some crapholes in Alabama, but probably not among the bright and educated.
Remember, not everybody here lives in the US like I assume you do (I live in France, as a first approximation it looks like you’re all crazy over there).
You might be interested in a book called Racial Paranoia. It argues that since overt racism is publicly unacceptable in the US, people are focusing on tinier and tinier clues about who they can trust, resulting in a paranoid style which is actually a rational response to weird conditions.
That sounds like a stretch. While public racism is unacceptable, acting in ways consistent with racial prejudice usually goes without comment as long as plausible deniability exists.
The text was too small for me to read easily in your link, so I just sampled it.
I suppose it depends on what you mean by public—my handy example is that Trent Lott’s political career was destroyed (severely damaged?) because he made a racist comment.
ETA: And even his comment was mild compared to what people say when prejudice is considered the default.
Hard to tell from this. Facebook and Twitter exist in an odd kind of limbo where they’re treated as somewhere between public and private depending on how wide someone’s network is, how sensitive their life is to dumb crap they might say online, and how aware they are of online privacy issues, so the stuff that crosses your feed isn’t necessarily representative of what the people behind it might stand behind in a more traditional environment.
Then there’s contextual issues. The linked image clearly isn’t a conversation, or even a time slice of a hashtag somebody’s following—it’s out of chronological order and any replies aren’t shown, so it doesn’t tell us much about how representative this is of opinion in general or about how people usually respond to opinions like these, both of which are important when trying to gauge public acceptability.
That’s a plausible hypothesis—I do get the impression that overt racism is slightly more acceptable in France, and definitely more acceptable in China.
I also noticed that Americans tend to have a perspective on Arab Immigrants in France that seems weird and could be explained by the fact that they suppose “French”-Arab relationships are like the White-Black relationship in the US (or at least, that was one hypothesis I had at the time after some weird conversations).
The interesting question isn’t just who has the worst fringe (let alone who has the worst fringe that’s shown up here), it’s who’s likely to get enough political power to do significant damage.
If it’s here, I’m not very concerned about that; I’m more concerned about evaporative cooling, or outrage and indignation becoming acceptable modes of communication, or contemporary political issues becoming more prevalant than outlandish scenarios.
If it’s in general, eh, I must admit I don’t care that much, I don’t have very strong opinions on who of “the left” or “the right” does the most damage when they’re elected; I don’t expect high value of information from looking at that, the whole field is polluted with partisan politics. I find figuring out what people agree and disagree on much more interesting.
I don’t see a good reason to believe that’s true—or at least, whether “conservatives” hold power is strongly function of what place you’re talking about, and of what you mean by “power”. Remember, not everybody here lives in the US like I assume you do (I live in France, as a first approximation it looks like you’re all crazy over there).
That’s because, for the most part, we are. It’s hard to be sane and rational when all the processes you rely on for data-collection have been co-opted.
But the whole point of the process is to force anyone with an unpopular opinion to tug more and more gently, until finally they cease to tug at all.
“Point”?
Then the PC hive mind can move the goalposts forward a bit, and start silencing a more moderate group of critics, and then another, and another, until ultimately the keepers of the received wisdom can say or do anything they like and no one dares to question them.
Or what? Are you worried that disagreeing with these “keepers of the received wisdom” will be criminalized? Bearing in mind that Fred Phelps is a real person and his actions are, as yet, legal.
So no, I’ll continue on with my ironclad opposition to such transparent ploys.
Transparent. Right. Because anyone who disagrees with you simply must have an ulterior motive.
Anyone who whines about how their delicate sensibilities can’t stand an open, honest discussion of the facts of an issue has given up the right to have anyone care what they think.
Indeed. Those toddlers are just trying to hide away from the truth about where babies come from.
But the whole point of the process is to force anyone with an unpopular opinion to tug more and more gently, until finally they cease to tug at all. Then the PC hive mind can move the goalposts forward a bit, and start silencing a more moderate group of critics, and then another, and another, until ultimately the keepers of the received wisdom can say or do anything they like and no one dares to question them.
So no, I’ll continue on with my ironclad opposition to such transparent ploys. Anyone who whines about how their delicate sensibilities can’t stand an open, honest discussion of the facts of an issue has given up the right to have anyone care what they think.
That is emphatically not the “point” of the process. That may be a consequence of the process, but it is not the point of it—and if it does happen to be a consequence of the process, it’s clear that you can be relied on to say so and we’ll negotiate a new equilibrium.
That… doesn’t appear to be what actually happens. Are there “PC hive minds”? definitely. But right now, they most assuredly don’t have the level of power that the old-guard conservatives do. Once they become the dominant force against rationality, if they don’t evolve into milder strains in response to evolutionary pressure on their own, then it makes sense to start fighting them too. But right now, I have a seriously hard time seeing them as worse than what they’re fighting.
(Who knows—maybe that makes me part of the PC hive mind myself? It would be good to get a solid argument for that, if it were the case; I’d rather not fall into a loyalty trap if I can avoid it).
I don’t want to death-spiral into a discussion of politics, so I’ll refrain from naming specific groups. But in most Western nations there are large, well-funded political activist groups that have consciously, explicitly adopting the tactic of aggressively claiming offense in order to silence their political opponents. While the members of such groups might be honestly dedicated to advancing some social cause, the leaders who encourage this behavior are professional politicians who are more likely to be motivated by issues of personal power and prestige.
So I’ll certainly concede that many individuals may feel genuinely offended in various cases, but I stand by my claim that most of the political organizations they belong to encourage constant claims of offense as a cynical power play.
If you don’t believe the ratcheting effect actually happens, I invite you to compare any random selection of political tracts from the 1950s, 1970s and 1990s. You’ll find that on many issues the terms of the debate have shifted to the point where opinions that were seriously discussed in the 1950s are now considered not just wrong but criminal offenses. This may seem like a good thing if you happen to agree with the opinion that’s currently be ascendant, but in most cases the change was not a result of one side marshaling superior evidence for their beliefs. Instead it’s all emotion and political gamesmanship, supplemented by naked censorship whenever one side manages to get a large enough majority.
You know, it sounds like you’re claiming that the fact that certain behaviors—generally accepted to be harmful—are no longer considered acceptable as proof of a conspiracy cynically piggybacking on this change to impose (self?)censorship , furthering some unspecified agenda. This feels like a strawman of your actual beliefs; could you explain what you meant?
I don’t see a good reason to believe that’s true—or at least, whether “conservatives” hold power is strongly function of what place you’re talking about, and of what you mean by “power”. Remember, not everybody here lives in the US like I assume you do (I live in France, as a first approximation it looks like you’re all crazy over there).
The impression I get is that both liberals and conservatives enjoy whining about how they are oppressed by their all-powerful opponents, and if you add the right caveats (what kind of oppression and where), they might both be right.
In this thread, I’ve seen some distasteful justifications of “lying for the Greater Good” (or even just to defend “people in my coalition”), and in one (heavily downvoted) case, someone claiming they’d rather see the world destroyed rather than seeing it continue to exist with the current value systems … all of that under the flag of feminism or LGBT advocacy. That has done very little to convince me that the biggest threats are from “old guard conservatives”. It may be the case in some crapholes in Alabama, but probably not among the bright and educated.
You might be interested in a book called Racial Paranoia. It argues that since overt racism is publicly unacceptable in the US, people are focusing on tinier and tinier clues about who they can trust, resulting in a paranoid style which is actually a rational response to weird conditions.
That sounds like a stretch. While public racism is unacceptable, acting in ways consistent with racial prejudice usually goes without comment as long as plausible deniability exists.
I don’t disagree with the substance of your comment, but I’m not sure that public racism is as widely unacceptable as you’d like to think:
http://i.imgur.com/vcYuy.png
The text was too small for me to read easily in your link, so I just sampled it.
I suppose it depends on what you mean by public—my handy example is that Trent Lott’s political career was destroyed (severely damaged?) because he made a racist comment.
ETA: And even his comment was mild compared to what people say when prejudice is considered the default.
Hard to tell from this. Facebook and Twitter exist in an odd kind of limbo where they’re treated as somewhere between public and private depending on how wide someone’s network is, how sensitive their life is to dumb crap they might say online, and how aware they are of online privacy issues, so the stuff that crosses your feed isn’t necessarily representative of what the people behind it might stand behind in a more traditional environment.
Then there’s contextual issues. The linked image clearly isn’t a conversation, or even a time slice of a hashtag somebody’s following—it’s out of chronological order and any replies aren’t shown, so it doesn’t tell us much about how representative this is of opinion in general or about how people usually respond to opinions like these, both of which are important when trying to gauge public acceptability.
I think such paranoia is in play in politics and sometimes online, where most or all of what you know about someone is what they say.
That’s a plausible hypothesis—I do get the impression that overt racism is slightly more acceptable in France, and definitely more acceptable in China.
I also noticed that Americans tend to have a perspective on Arab Immigrants in France that seems weird and could be explained by the fact that they suppose “French”-Arab relationships are like the White-Black relationship in the US (or at least, that was one hypothesis I had at the time after some weird conversations).
The interesting question isn’t just who has the worst fringe (let alone who has the worst fringe that’s shown up here), it’s who’s likely to get enough political power to do significant damage.
You mean political power here, or in general?
If it’s here, I’m not very concerned about that; I’m more concerned about evaporative cooling, or outrage and indignation becoming acceptable modes of communication, or contemporary political issues becoming more prevalant than outlandish scenarios.
If it’s in general, eh, I must admit I don’t care that much, I don’t have very strong opinions on who of “the left” or “the right” does the most damage when they’re elected; I don’t expect high value of information from looking at that, the whole field is polluted with partisan politics. I find figuring out what people agree and disagree on much more interesting.
That’s because, for the most part, we are. It’s hard to be sane and rational when all the processes you rely on for data-collection have been co-opted.
“Point”?
Or what? Are you worried that disagreeing with these “keepers of the received wisdom” will be criminalized? Bearing in mind that Fred Phelps is a real person and his actions are, as yet, legal.
Transparent. Right. Because anyone who disagrees with you simply must have an ulterior motive.
Indeed. Those toddlers are just trying to hide away from the truth about where babies come from.