Are there interesting reasons that some LW regulars feel disdain for RationalWiki, besides RW’s unflattering opinion of LW/EY? Can you steelman that disdain into a short description of what’s wrong with RW, from their point of view? (I’m asking as someone basically unfamiliar with RW).
I think the main reason is that basically nobody in the wider world talks about LW, and RW is the only place that talks about LW even that much. And RW can’t reasonably be called very interested in LW either (though many RW regulars find LW annoying when it comes to their attention). Also, we use the word “rational”, which LW thinks of as its own—I think that’s a big factor.
From my own perspective: RW has many problems. The name is a historical accident (and SkepticWiki.com/org is in the hands of a domainer). Mostly it hasn’t enough people who can actually write. It’s literally not run by anyone (same way Wikipedia isn’t), so is not going to be fixed other than organically. Its good stuff is excellent and informative, but a lot of it isn’t quite fit for referring outside fresh readers to.
It surprises me how popular it is (as in, I keep tripping over people using a particular page they like—Alexa 21,000 worldwide, 8800 US—and Snopes uses us a bit) - it turns out there’s demand for something that can set out “no, actually, that’s BS and here’s why, point for point”. Raising the sanity waterline does in fact also involve dredging the swamps and cleaning up toxic waste spills. Every time we have a fundraiser it finishes ridiculously quickly (’cos our expenses are literally a couple thousand dollars a year). We have readers who just love us.
On balance, though, I do think RW makes the world a better place rather than a worse one. (Or, of course, I wouldn’t bother.)
I’m not sure I could reasonably steelman LW opposition to RW as if either were a monolith and there were no crossover (which simply isn’t the case). I will note that RW is piss-insignificant, and if you’re spending any time whatsoever worrying what RW thinks of LW then you’re wasting precious seconds.
(The discussion of RW on LW actually came up on the LW and RW Facebook groups this morning too.)
Because RW sucks at actually being rational. Rather they seem to have confused being “rational” with supporting whatever they perceive to be the official scientific position. Whereas LW has a number of contrarian positions, most notably cryonics and the Singularity, where it is widely believed the mainstream position is likely wrong and their argument for it is just silly.
Back when you joined Wikipedia, in 2004, many articles on relatively basic subjects were quite deficient and easily improved by people with modest skills and knowledge. This enabled the cohort that joined then to learn a lot and gradually grow into better editors. This seems much more difficult today. Is this a problem and is there any way to fix it? Has something similar happened with LessWrong, where the whole thing was exciting and easy for beginners some years ago but is “boring and opaque” to beginners now?
Re: Wikipedia—This is pretty well-trodden ground, in terms of (a) people coming up with explanations (b) having little evidence as to which of them hold. There’s all manner of obvious systemic problems with Wikipedia (maybe the easy stuff’s been written, the community is frequently toxic, the community is particularly harsh to newbies, etc) but the odd thing is that the decline in editing observed since 2007 has also held for wikis that are much younger than English Wikipedia—which suggests an outside effect. We’re hoping the Visual Editor helps, once it works well enough (at present it’s at about the stage of quality I’d have expected; I can assure you that everyone involved fully understands that the Google+-like attempt to push everyone into using it was an utter disaster on almost every level). The Wikimedia Foundation is seriously interested in getting people involved, insofar as it can make that happen.
As for LessWrong … it’s interesting reading through every post on the site (not just the Sequences) from the beginning in chronological order—because then you get the comments. You can see some of the effect you describe. Basically, no-one had read the whole thing yet, ’cos it was just being written.
I’m not sure it was easier for beginners at all. Remember there was only “main” for the longest time—and it was very scary to write for (and still is). Right now you can write stuff in discussion, or in various open threads in discussion.
I am not interesting, but I’ve been here a few years.
Are there interesting reasons that some LW regulars feel disdain for RationalWiki, besides RW’s unflattering opinion of LW/EY? Can you steelman that disdain into a short description of what’s wrong with RW, from their point of view? (I’m asking as someone basically unfamiliar with RW).
I think the main reason is that basically nobody in the wider world talks about LW, and RW is the only place that talks about LW even that much. And RW can’t reasonably be called very interested in LW either (though many RW regulars find LW annoying when it comes to their attention). Also, we use the word “rational”, which LW thinks of as its own—I think that’s a big factor.
From my own perspective: RW has many problems. The name is a historical accident (and SkepticWiki.com/org is in the hands of a domainer). Mostly it hasn’t enough people who can actually write. It’s literally not run by anyone (same way Wikipedia isn’t), so is not going to be fixed other than organically. Its good stuff is excellent and informative, but a lot of it isn’t quite fit for referring outside fresh readers to.
It surprises me how popular it is (as in, I keep tripping over people using a particular page they like—Alexa 21,000 worldwide, 8800 US—and Snopes uses us a bit) - it turns out there’s demand for something that can set out “no, actually, that’s BS and here’s why, point for point”. Raising the sanity waterline does in fact also involve dredging the swamps and cleaning up toxic waste spills. Every time we have a fundraiser it finishes ridiculously quickly (’cos our expenses are literally a couple thousand dollars a year). We have readers who just love us.
On balance, though, I do think RW makes the world a better place rather than a worse one. (Or, of course, I wouldn’t bother.)
FWIW, there’s a current active discussion on What RW Is For, which I expect not to go anywhere much.
I’m not sure I could reasonably steelman LW opposition to RW as if either were a monolith and there were no crossover (which simply isn’t the case). I will note that RW is piss-insignificant, and if you’re spending any time whatsoever worrying what RW thinks of LW then you’re wasting precious seconds.
(The discussion of RW on LW actually came up on the LW and RW Facebook groups this morning too.)
Because RW sucks at actually being rational. Rather they seem to have confused being “rational” with supporting whatever they perceive to be the official scientific position. Whereas LW has a number of contrarian positions, most notably cryonics and the Singularity, where it is widely believed the mainstream position is likely wrong and their argument for it is just silly.
I’m downvoting you not because I disagree, but rather because the question was addressed to David, not you.
It is worth noting that Eugene’s main concern is that RW has no patience with “race realism”, as its proponents call it.
Back when you joined Wikipedia, in 2004, many articles on relatively basic subjects were quite deficient and easily improved by people with modest skills and knowledge. This enabled the cohort that joined then to learn a lot and gradually grow into better editors. This seems much more difficult today. Is this a problem and is there any way to fix it? Has something similar happened with LessWrong, where the whole thing was exciting and easy for beginners some years ago but is “boring and opaque” to beginners now?
My answer may be a bit generic :-)
Re: Wikipedia—This is pretty well-trodden ground, in terms of (a) people coming up with explanations (b) having little evidence as to which of them hold. There’s all manner of obvious systemic problems with Wikipedia (maybe the easy stuff’s been written, the community is frequently toxic, the community is particularly harsh to newbies, etc) but the odd thing is that the decline in editing observed since 2007 has also held for wikis that are much younger than English Wikipedia—which suggests an outside effect. We’re hoping the Visual Editor helps, once it works well enough (at present it’s at about the stage of quality I’d have expected; I can assure you that everyone involved fully understands that the Google+-like attempt to push everyone into using it was an utter disaster on almost every level). The Wikimedia Foundation is seriously interested in getting people involved, insofar as it can make that happen.
As for LessWrong … it’s interesting reading through every post on the site (not just the Sequences) from the beginning in chronological order—because then you get the comments. You can see some of the effect you describe. Basically, no-one had read the whole thing yet, ’cos it was just being written.
I’m not sure it was easier for beginners at all. Remember there was only “main” for the longest time—and it was very scary to write for (and still is). Right now you can write stuff in discussion, or in various open threads in discussion.
Thank you. You brought up considerations I hadn’t considered.