First, when Jacob wrote “join the tribe”, I don’t think ey had anything as specific as a rationalist village in mind? Your model fits the bill as well, IMO. So what you’re saying here doesn’t seem like an argument against my objection to Zack’s objection to Jacob.
Second, specifically regarding Crocker’s rules, I’m not their fan at all. I think that you can be honest and tactful at the same time, and it’s reasonable to expect the same from other people.
Third, sure, social and economic dependencies can create problems, but what about your social and economic dependencies on non-rationalists? I do agree that dilution is a real danger (if not necessarily an insurmountable one).
I will probably never have the chance to live in a rationalist village, so for me the question is mostly academic. To me, a rationalist village sounds like a good idea in expectation (for some possible executions), but the uncertainty is great. However, why not experiment? Some rationalists can try having their own village. Many others wouldn’t join them anyway. We would see what comes out of it, and learn.
I’m breaking this into a separate thread since I think it’s a separate topic.
Second, specifically regarding Crocker’s rules, I’m not their fan at all. I think that you can be honest and tactful at the same time, and it’s reasonable to expect the same from other people.
So I disagree. Obviously you can’t impose Croker’s rules on others, but I find it much easier and far less mentally taxing to communicate with people I don’t expect to get offended. Likewise, I’ve gained a great deal of benefit from people very straightforwardly and bluntly calling me out when I’m dropping the ball, and I don’t think they would have bothered otherwise since there was no obvious way to be tactful about it. I also think that there are individuals out there that are both smart and easily offended, and with those individuals tact isn’t really an option as they can transparently see what you’re trying to say, and will take issue with it anyways.
I can see the value of “getting offended” when everyone is sorta operating on simulacra level 3 and factual statements are actually group policy bids. However, when it comes to forming accurate beliefs, “getting offended” strikes me as counter productive, and I do my best to operate in a mode where I don’t do it, which is basically Croker’s rules.
This might be another difference of personalities, maybe Crocker’s rules make sense for some people.
The problem is, different people have conflicting interests. If we all had the same utility function then, sure, communication would be only about conveying factual information. But we don’t. In order to cooperate, we need not only to share information, but also reassure each other we are trustworthy and not planning to defect. If someone criticizes me in a way that disregards tact, it leads me to suspect that eir agenda is not helping me but undermining my status in the group.
You can say, we shouldn’t do that, that’s “simulacra” and simulacra=bad. But the game theory is real, and you can’t just magic it away by wishing it would be different. You can try just taking on faith that everyone are your allies, but then you’ll get exploited by defectors. Or you can try to come up with a different set of norms that solves the problem. But that can’t be Crocker’s rules, at least it can’t be only Crocker’s rules.
Now, obviously you can go too far in the other direction and stop conveying meaningful criticism, or start dancing around facts that need to be faced. That’s also bad. But the optimum is in the middle, at least for most people.
So first of all, I think the dynamics of surrounding offense are tripartite. You have the the party who said something offensive, the party who gets offended, and the party who judges the others involved based on the remark. Furthermore, the reason why simulacra=bad in general is because the underlying truth is irrelevant. Without extra social machinery, there’s no way to distinguish between valid criticism and slander. Offense and slander are both symmetric weapons.
This might be another difference of personalities...you can try to come up with a different set of norms that solves the problem. But that can’t be Crocker’s rules, at least it can’t be only Crocker’s rules.
I think that’s a big part of it. Especially IRL, I’ve taken quite a few steps over the course of years to mitigate the trust issues you bring up in the first place, and I rely on social circles with norms that mitigate the downsides of Crocker’s rules. A good combination of integrity+documentation+choice of allies makes it difficult to criticize someone legitimately. To an extent, I try to make my actions align with the values of the people I associate myself with, I keep good records of what I do, and I check that the people I need either put effort into forming accurate beliefs or won’t judge me regardless of how they see me. Then when criticism is levelled against myself and or my group, I can usually challenge it by encouraging relevant third parties to look more closely at the underlying reality, usually by directly arguing against what was stated. That way I can ward off a lot of criticism without compromising as much on truth seeking, provided there isn’t a sea change in the values of my peers. This has the added benefit that it allows me and my peers to hold each other accountable to take actions that promote each others values.
The other thing I’m doing that is both far easier to pull off and way more effective, is just to be anonymous. When the judging party can’t retaliate because they don’t know you IRL and the people calling the shots on the site respect privacy and have very permissive posting norms, who cares what people say about you? You can take and dish out all the criticism you want and the only consequence is that you’ll need to sort through the crap to find the constructive/actionable/accurate stuff. (Although crap criticism can easily be a serious problem in and of itself.)
First, when Jacob wrote “join the tribe”, I don’t think ey had anything as specific as a rationalist village in mind? Your model fits the bill as well, IMO. So what you’re saying here doesn’t seem like an argument against my objection to Zack’s objection to Jacob.
So my objection definitely applies much more to a village than less tightly bound communities, and Jacob could have been referring to anything along that spectrum. But I brought it up because you said:
Moreover, the relationships between them shouldn’t be purely impersonal and intellectual. Any group endeavour benefits from emotional connections and mutual support.
This is where the objection begins to apply. The more interdependent the group becomes, the more susceptible it is to the issues I brought up. I don’t think it’s a big deal in an online community, especially with pseudonyms, but I think we need to be careful when you get to more IRL communities. With a village, treating it like an experiment is good first step, but I’d definitely be in the group that wouldn’t join unless explicit thought had been put in to deal with my objections, or the village had been running successfully for long enough that I become convinced I was wrong.
Third, sure, social and economic dependencies can create problems, but what about your social and economic dependencies on non-rationalists? I do agree that dilution is a real danger (if not necessarily an insurmountable one).
So in this case individual rationalists can still be undermined by their social networks, but theres a few reasons this is a more robust model. 1) You can have a dual-identity. In my case most of the people I interact with don’t know what a rationalist is, I either introduce someone to the ideas here without referencing this place, or I introduce them to this place after I’ve vetted them. This makes it harder for social networks to put pressure on you or undermine you. 2) A group failure of rationality is far less likely to occur when doing so requires affecting social networks in New York, SF, Singapore, Northern Canada, Russia, etc., then when you just need to influence in a single social network.
So in this case individual rationalists can still be undermined by their social networks, but theres a few reasons this is a more robust model. 1) You can have a dual-identity. In my case most of the people I interact with don’t know what a rationalist is, I either introduce someone to the ideas here without referencing this place, or I introduce them to this place after I’ve vetted them. This makes it harder for social networks to put pressure on you or undermine you.
Hmm, at this point it might be just a difference of personalities, but to me what you’re saying sounds like “if you don’t eat, you can’t get good poisoning”. “Dual identity” doesn’t work for me, I feel that social connections are meaningless if I can’t be upfront about myself.
A group failure of rationality is far less likely to occur when doing so requires affecting social networks in New York, SF, Singapore, Northern Canada, Russia, etc., then when you just need to influence in a single social network.
I guess? But in any case there will many subnetworks in the network. Even if everyone adopt the “village” model, there will be many such villages.
Hmm, at this point it might be just a difference of personalities, but to me what you’re saying sounds like “if you don’t eat, you can’t get good poisoning”. “Dual identity” doesn’t work for me, I feel that social connections are meaningless if I can’t be upfront about myself.
That’s probably a good part of it. I have no problem hiding a good chunk of my thoughts and views from people I don’t completely trust, and for most practical intents and purposes I’m quite a bit more “myself” online than IRL.
But in any case there will many subnetworks in the network. Even if everyone adopt the “village” model, there will be many such villages.
I think that’s easier said than done, and that a great effort needs to be made to deal with effects that come with having redundancy amongst villages/networks. Off the top of my head, you need to ward against having one of the communities implode after their best members leave for another:
Likewise, even if you do keep redundancy in rationalist communities, you need to ensure that there’s a mechanism that prevents them from seeing each other as out-groups or attacking each other when they do. This is especially important since one group viewing the other as their out-group, but not vice versa can lead to the group with the larger in-group getting exploited.
First, when Jacob wrote “join the tribe”, I don’t think ey had anything as specific as a rationalist village in mind? Your model fits the bill as well, IMO. So what you’re saying here doesn’t seem like an argument against my objection to Zack’s objection to Jacob.
Second, specifically regarding Crocker’s rules, I’m not their fan at all. I think that you can be honest and tactful at the same time, and it’s reasonable to expect the same from other people.
Third, sure, social and economic dependencies can create problems, but what about your social and economic dependencies on non-rationalists? I do agree that dilution is a real danger (if not necessarily an insurmountable one).
I will probably never have the chance to live in a rationalist village, so for me the question is mostly academic. To me, a rationalist village sounds like a good idea in expectation (for some possible executions), but the uncertainty is great. However, why not experiment? Some rationalists can try having their own village. Many others wouldn’t join them anyway. We would see what comes out of it, and learn.
I’m breaking this into a separate thread since I think it’s a separate topic.
So I disagree. Obviously you can’t impose Croker’s rules on others, but I find it much easier and far less mentally taxing to communicate with people I don’t expect to get offended. Likewise, I’ve gained a great deal of benefit from people very straightforwardly and bluntly calling me out when I’m dropping the ball, and I don’t think they would have bothered otherwise since there was no obvious way to be tactful about it. I also think that there are individuals out there that are both smart and easily offended, and with those individuals tact isn’t really an option as they can transparently see what you’re trying to say, and will take issue with it anyways.
I can see the value of “getting offended” when everyone is sorta operating on simulacra level 3 and factual statements are actually group policy bids. However, when it comes to forming accurate beliefs, “getting offended” strikes me as counter productive, and I do my best to operate in a mode where I don’t do it, which is basically Croker’s rules.
This might be another difference of personalities, maybe Crocker’s rules make sense for some people.
The problem is, different people have conflicting interests. If we all had the same utility function then, sure, communication would be only about conveying factual information. But we don’t. In order to cooperate, we need not only to share information, but also reassure each other we are trustworthy and not planning to defect. If someone criticizes me in a way that disregards tact, it leads me to suspect that eir agenda is not helping me but undermining my status in the group.
You can say, we shouldn’t do that, that’s “simulacra” and simulacra=bad. But the game theory is real, and you can’t just magic it away by wishing it would be different. You can try just taking on faith that everyone are your allies, but then you’ll get exploited by defectors. Or you can try to come up with a different set of norms that solves the problem. But that can’t be Crocker’s rules, at least it can’t be only Crocker’s rules.
Now, obviously you can go too far in the other direction and stop conveying meaningful criticism, or start dancing around facts that need to be faced. That’s also bad. But the optimum is in the middle, at least for most people.
So first of all, I think the dynamics of surrounding offense are tripartite. You have the the party who said something offensive, the party who gets offended, and the party who judges the others involved based on the remark. Furthermore, the reason why simulacra=bad in general is because the underlying truth is irrelevant. Without extra social machinery, there’s no way to distinguish between valid criticism and slander. Offense and slander are both symmetric weapons.
I think that’s a big part of it. Especially IRL, I’ve taken quite a few steps over the course of years to mitigate the trust issues you bring up in the first place, and I rely on social circles with norms that mitigate the downsides of Crocker’s rules. A good combination of integrity+documentation+choice of allies makes it difficult to criticize someone legitimately. To an extent, I try to make my actions align with the values of the people I associate myself with, I keep good records of what I do, and I check that the people I need either put effort into forming accurate beliefs or won’t judge me regardless of how they see me. Then when criticism is levelled against myself and or my group, I can usually challenge it by encouraging relevant third parties to look more closely at the underlying reality, usually by directly arguing against what was stated. That way I can ward off a lot of criticism without compromising as much on truth seeking, provided there isn’t a sea change in the values of my peers. This has the added benefit that it allows me and my peers to hold each other accountable to take actions that promote each others values.
The other thing I’m doing that is both far easier to pull off and way more effective, is just to be anonymous. When the judging party can’t retaliate because they don’t know you IRL and the people calling the shots on the site respect privacy and have very permissive posting norms, who cares what people say about you? You can take and dish out all the criticism you want and the only consequence is that you’ll need to sort through the crap to find the constructive/actionable/accurate stuff. (Although crap criticism can easily be a serious problem in and of itself.)
So my objection definitely applies much more to a village than less tightly bound communities, and Jacob could have been referring to anything along that spectrum. But I brought it up because you said:
This is where the objection begins to apply. The more interdependent the group becomes, the more susceptible it is to the issues I brought up. I don’t think it’s a big deal in an online community, especially with pseudonyms, but I think we need to be careful when you get to more IRL communities. With a village, treating it like an experiment is good first step, but I’d definitely be in the group that wouldn’t join unless explicit thought had been put in to deal with my objections, or the village had been running successfully for long enough that I become convinced I was wrong.
So in this case individual rationalists can still be undermined by their social networks, but theres a few reasons this is a more robust model. 1) You can have a dual-identity. In my case most of the people I interact with don’t know what a rationalist is, I either introduce someone to the ideas here without referencing this place, or I introduce them to this place after I’ve vetted them. This makes it harder for social networks to put pressure on you or undermine you. 2) A group failure of rationality is far less likely to occur when doing so requires affecting social networks in New York, SF, Singapore, Northern Canada, Russia, etc., then when you just need to influence in a single social network.
Hmm, at this point it might be just a difference of personalities, but to me what you’re saying sounds like “if you don’t eat, you can’t get good poisoning”. “Dual identity” doesn’t work for me, I feel that social connections are meaningless if I can’t be upfront about myself.
I guess? But in any case there will many subnetworks in the network. Even if everyone adopt the “village” model, there will be many such villages.
That’s probably a good part of it. I have no problem hiding a good chunk of my thoughts and views from people I don’t completely trust, and for most practical intents and purposes I’m quite a bit more “myself” online than IRL.
I think that’s easier said than done, and that a great effort needs to be made to deal with effects that come with having redundancy amongst villages/networks. Off the top of my head, you need to ward against having one of the communities implode after their best members leave for another:
Likewise, even if you do keep redundancy in rationalist communities, you need to ensure that there’s a mechanism that prevents them from seeing each other as out-groups or attacking each other when they do. This is especially important since one group viewing the other as their out-group, but not vice versa can lead to the group with the larger in-group getting exploited.