It’s not too hard to see why people would benefit from joining a majority expropriating from a blameworthy individual. But why would they join a majority transferring resources to a praiseworthy one? So, being singled out is much more bad than good here.
This makes intuitive sense, but it doesn’t seem to be borne out by modern experience; when coalitions attack blameworthy individuals these days, they don’t usually get any resources out of it, the resources just end up destroyed or taken by a government that wasn’t part of the coalition.
Not true; each member of the coalition responsible for destroying the enemy gains recognition as “one of the good people”, and temporary security from being branded as an enemy themselves.
If that’s what people are getting out of it, it’s symmetric, and they might as well join praise-gangs, so this fails to explain the asymmetry. You are disagreeing with Benquo just as much as Jimrandomh is.
If you praise one who is praised by many others, you might be doing it only to get with the “in” crowd, and that is worthless; it costs you nothing and it therefore signals nothing. But if you help to destroy one who is targeted by many others, it does not matter if others are also destroying him, then you incur the dual cost of ensuring the destruction of one of the enemy faction, and of marking yourself as being a foe of that enemy faction; these are costs, and thus make for a strong signal (that you are not one of Them).
OK, if praise-gangs don’t actually do anything, while destruction gangs actually destroy, then praise-gangs are cheap talk. But that sounds to me like it’s just pushing it back another level. Benquo claimed that there was an asymmetry in joining putatively effective gangs. If destruction is 10x as effective as creation, then maybe a pebble promoting creation should get 1⁄10 as much credit as a pebble promoting destruction.
and that is worthless; it costs you nothing and it therefore signals nothing.
signaling conformity, counter to beliefs, is not costless. Praise that is popular is evidence AT LEAST that conformity on this topic is more important to the judgment-expresser than unpopular blame. so some mix of “actual praise” and “complaint less important than conformity”.
Thanks for pushing towards clarity here! I’m a bit confused about what you’re saying, in part because I find the references in Said’s comment a bit unclear (e.g. what exactly is implied by “recognition as ‘one of the good people’”?). I also don’t see how the “temporary security” paradigm works symmetrically. Would you be wiling to unpack this a bit?
In the battle between Us and Them, you must continually prove that you are one of Us, lest we suspect that you are secretly with Them. Taking part on the destruction of one of Them is evidence that you are not yourself one of Them, as failing do so is evidence of the opposite; for who would not wish to destroy Them, but one of their own?
This is the sort of thing that seems increasingly unappealing, the less you’re operating under the assumption that things are zero-sum within the relevant domain. I agree that this assumption is often false! And yet, many people seem to be acting on it in many contexts.
What do you mean by “modern experience”? If you mean things happening at new scales, like twitter mobs, probably game theory is not the right way to describe it, but accidental consequences of psychology adapted for smaller settings. Whereas I think Benquo is talking about smaller scales, like office politics, where the resources are near enough to seize. That may well explain irrational behavior at broader scales. (Although I think twitter mobs aren’t that asymmetric.)
This makes intuitive sense, but it doesn’t seem to be borne out by modern experience; when coalitions attack blameworthy individuals these days, they don’t usually get any resources out of it, the resources just end up destroyed or taken by a government that wasn’t part of the coalition.
Not true; each member of the coalition responsible for destroying the enemy gains recognition as “one of the good people”, and temporary security from being branded as an enemy themselves.
If that’s what people are getting out of it, it’s symmetric, and they might as well join praise-gangs, so this fails to explain the asymmetry. You are disagreeing with Benquo just as much as Jimrandomh is.
If you praise one who is praised by many others, you might be doing it only to get with the “in” crowd, and that is worthless; it costs you nothing and it therefore signals nothing. But if you help to destroy one who is targeted by many others, it does not matter if others are also destroying him, then you incur the dual cost of ensuring the destruction of one of the enemy faction, and of marking yourself as being a foe of that enemy faction; these are costs, and thus make for a strong signal (that you are not one of Them).
OK, if praise-gangs don’t actually do anything, while destruction gangs actually destroy, then praise-gangs are cheap talk. But that sounds to me like it’s just pushing it back another level. Benquo claimed that there was an asymmetry in joining putatively effective gangs. If destruction is 10x as effective as creation, then maybe a pebble promoting creation should get 1⁄10 as much credit as a pebble promoting destruction.
signaling conformity, counter to beliefs, is not costless. Praise that is popular is evidence AT LEAST that conformity on this topic is more important to the judgment-expresser than unpopular blame. so some mix of “actual praise” and “complaint less important than conformity”.
Thanks for pushing towards clarity here! I’m a bit confused about what you’re saying, in part because I find the references in Said’s comment a bit unclear (e.g. what exactly is implied by “recognition as ‘one of the good people’”?). I also don’t see how the “temporary security” paradigm works symmetrically. Would you be wiling to unpack this a bit?
In the battle between Us and Them, you must continually prove that you are one of Us, lest we suspect that you are secretly with Them. Taking part on the destruction of one of Them is evidence that you are not yourself one of Them, as failing do so is evidence of the opposite; for who would not wish to destroy Them, but one of their own?
The double double double double cross, shows evidence of being one of Us, but actually being one of Them.
Or, even better, Being both at once. The prestige, oh the prestige...
This is the sort of thing that seems increasingly unappealing, the less you’re operating under the assumption that things are zero-sum within the relevant domain. I agree that this assumption is often false! And yet, many people seem to be acting on it in many contexts.
What do you mean by “modern experience”? If you mean things happening at new scales, like twitter mobs, probably game theory is not the right way to describe it, but accidental consequences of psychology adapted for smaller settings. Whereas I think Benquo is talking about smaller scales, like office politics, where the resources are near enough to seize. That may well explain irrational behavior at broader scales. (Although I think twitter mobs aren’t that asymmetric.)