Well, moving on from the point of my root comment...
I will say that I would not be surprised if we were to ascertain with some amount of certainty that toxicity is the or one of the main drivers of gender disparity in tech.
That being said, it would also surprise me if women leaving tech even came close to accounting for the gender disparity and because of that I’m kind of up in the air about how much weight to put on the explanations women give for leaving as an explanation for women never having entered.
It’s certainly possible that tech-is-a-toxic-place-for-women (which I agree it is in many?/most?/all? places) has entered the zeitgeist so thoroughly that women have not entered because of it, I’m just not sure that this is the case.
What’s more, historically, there have been much more women in software engineering. It seems that the gender distribution only started to shift towards men once software engineering started to become a lucrative career.
Do you have any good evidence of this? Like, I’m aware of the fact that historically there were many women doing impressive things in software engineering, but there are also many women doing that today. I would be interested in seeing some sort of data here.
I will say that I would not be surprised if we were to ascertain with some amount of certainty that toxicity is the or one of the main drivers of gender disparity in tech.
Part of the problem with this post and discussion is that “toxic” isn’t specific enough to measure or address. Even just the subset of toxicity which is “pervasive attitudes and comments that demean and dehumanize everyone, but women more so than men”, I’ll be surprised if it’s not a major contributor to the disparity. The other problem is that “tech” isn’t a single thing—it’s a loose cluster with a whole lot of individual variance.
That being said, it would also surprise me if women leaving tech even came close to accounting for the gender disparity and because of that I’m kind of up in the air about how much weight to put on the explanations women give for leaving as an explanation for women never having entered.
When a middle-school girl is teased for asking questions about algebra, I don’t much care whether it’s leaving or never entering.
Even just the subset of toxicity which is “pervasive attitudes and comments that demean and dehumanize everyone, but women more so than men”, I’ll be surprised if it’s not a major contributor to the disparity.
Agreed.
When a middle-school girl is teased for asking questions about algebra, I don’t much care whether it’s leaving or never entering.
Agreed, but I’m not sure how to read the point of you bringing it up as it doesn’t seem exactly relevant to my point?
Earl E. Bird said that he thinks the reasons for gender disparity are the same as the reasons women leave tech. I’m saying that does not necessarily hold true unless the number of women leaving accounts for the gender disparity.
Well, moving on from the point of my root comment...
I will say that I would not be surprised if we were to ascertain with some amount of certainty that toxicity is the or one of the main drivers of gender disparity in tech.
That being said, it would also surprise me if women leaving tech even came close to accounting for the gender disparity and because of that I’m kind of up in the air about how much weight to put on the explanations women give for leaving as an explanation for women never having entered.
It’s certainly possible that tech-is-a-toxic-place-for-women (which I agree it is in many?/most?/all? places) has entered the zeitgeist so thoroughly that women have not entered because of it, I’m just not sure that this is the case.
Do you have any good evidence of this? Like, I’m aware of the fact that historically there were many women doing impressive things in software engineering, but there are also many women doing that today. I would be interested in seeing some sort of data here.
Part of the problem with this post and discussion is that “toxic” isn’t specific enough to measure or address. Even just the subset of toxicity which is “pervasive attitudes and comments that demean and dehumanize everyone, but women more so than men”, I’ll be surprised if it’s not a major contributor to the disparity. The other problem is that “tech” isn’t a single thing—it’s a loose cluster with a whole lot of individual variance.
When a middle-school girl is teased for asking questions about algebra, I don’t much care whether it’s leaving or never entering.
Agreed.
Agreed, but I’m not sure how to read the point of you bringing it up as it doesn’t seem exactly relevant to my point?
Earl E. Bird said that he thinks the reasons for gender disparity are the same as the reasons women leave tech. I’m saying that does not necessarily hold true unless the number of women leaving accounts for the gender disparity.