There are also cases where the people are aligned but still keep secrets! The simple case is a surprise party, where everyone wants the target person not to know, including (though they aren’t likely to think of this out of the blue) the target themself. So even perfect alignment isn’t quite enough to get rid of secrets.
I think that example is either incorrect or part of a larger example class which may be weaker.
It might be wrong if the embarrassment reflects fear of social harm. This would still be adversarial/harm-causing, so it is part of Dagon’s framework.
If that’s not correct, I think the agent is simply acting irrationally and this is a larger class. An irrational agent can be mentally harmed by anything at all, so this class is much larger, but also a bit weaker to talk about (it probably best fits on a sliding scale as well).
Hmm, suppose an adult had urinary problems and wetted their bed regularly. Which category would you say that fits into? Or somebody whose parents had named them something that they didn’t like and they changed their name and didn’t want others to know their original given name due to aesthetic preferences and social implications of character traits related to that name?
There would be some social harm in sharing this either of these, but would it necessarily be adversarial? Even if others were aligned with the person with the secret, they couldn’t help but look at them a bit different knowing the secret.
You asking that question made me realize that I had mentally redefined “adversarial” underneath us!
I feel “adversarial” is not really a good pointer to the concept I was using, which is what causes this confusion. I was reading it like it meant “referring to potential harm by person A onto person B”, without any connotation of adversarial. I think that whether or not you accept this incredibly nonstandard definition is the deciding factor on this disagreement.
That said, you were right! Thanks for calling me on that weird move, I genuinely would not have seen what I’d done without that last clarification.
There are also cases where the people are aligned but still keep secrets! The simple case is a surprise party, where everyone wants the target person not to know, including (though they aren’t likely to think of this out of the blue) the target themself. So even perfect alignment isn’t quite enough to get rid of secrets.
Another such case is if sharing something would embarrass somebody. They might be embarrassed in spite of others not acting adversarial towards them.
I think that example is either incorrect or part of a larger example class which may be weaker.
It might be wrong if the embarrassment reflects fear of social harm. This would still be adversarial/harm-causing, so it is part of Dagon’s framework.
If that’s not correct, I think the agent is simply acting irrationally and this is a larger class. An irrational agent can be mentally harmed by anything at all, so this class is much larger, but also a bit weaker to talk about (it probably best fits on a sliding scale as well).
Hmm, suppose an adult had urinary problems and wetted their bed regularly. Which category would you say that fits into? Or somebody whose parents had named them something that they didn’t like and they changed their name and didn’t want others to know their original given name due to aesthetic preferences and social implications of character traits related to that name?
There would be some social harm in sharing this either of these, but would it necessarily be adversarial? Even if others were aligned with the person with the secret, they couldn’t help but look at them a bit different knowing the secret.
You asking that question made me realize that I had mentally redefined “adversarial” underneath us!
I feel “adversarial” is not really a good pointer to the concept I was using, which is what causes this confusion. I was reading it like it meant “referring to potential harm by person A onto person B”, without any connotation of adversarial. I think that whether or not you accept this incredibly nonstandard definition is the deciding factor on this disagreement.
That said, you were right! Thanks for calling me on that weird move, I genuinely would not have seen what I’d done without that last clarification.
Yes, I agree that this nonstandard definition is a crux for this disagreement. Good analysis.