We cannot realistically expect a significant part of population (let’s say, 10%) to become advanced meditators to the level that they actually become indifferent to pain. So… for practical purposes, “pain causes aversion” describes the situation correctly, for a vast majority of people.
Which, if this is just a semantic argument, then sure. But OP’s conclusion is goal-oriented:
Understanding the distinction between pain and suffering is crucial for developing effective strategies to reduce suffering. By directly addressing the craving, aversion, and clinging which cause suffering, we can create more compassionate and impactful interventions.
When I think of effective strategies here, I think of developing jhana helmets[1] which would imitate the mind state of blissful-joy-flow state. Although this causes joy-concentrated-collectedness, it’s argued that this puts your mind in a state where it can better notice that aversion/craving are necessary for suffering (note: I’ve only partially experienced this).
Although I think you’re expressing skepticism of craving/aversion as the only necessary cause of suffering for all people? Or maybe just the 99.9999% reduction in suffering (ie the knife) vs a 99% reduction for all? What do you actually believe?
For me, I read a book that suggested many different experiments to try in a playful way. One was to pay attention to the “distance” between a my current state (e.g. “itching”) and a desired state (“not itching”), and it did feel worse the larger the “distance”. I could even intentionally make it feel larger or small and thought that was very interesting. In one limiting case, you don’t classify the two situations “itching” “not itching” as separate, so no suffering. In the other, it’s “the difference between heaven and hell”, lol. This book had >100 like these (though it is intended for advanced meditators, brag brag).
those jhana helmet people have pivoted to improving pedagogy w/ jhana retreats at $1-2k, I think for the purpose of gathering more jhana data, but then it became widely successful
I agree that emotional reaction can make the pain much worse. But I think that if you already are a reasonable sane adult, removing the emotional reaction would reduce the badness maybe by half. Even very experienced meditators can be overwhelmed by pain, if it is strong enough.
Reducing by half is still something worth doing. But I think we already are trying to get people there—the concepts of self-control, “no pain no gain”, stoicism, etc., are well-known even outside Buddhism.
You say:
Which, if this is just a semantic argument, then sure. But OP’s conclusion is goal-oriented:
When I think of effective strategies here, I think of developing jhana helmets[1] which would imitate the mind state of blissful-joy-flow state. Although this causes joy-concentrated-collectedness, it’s argued that this puts your mind in a state where it can better notice that aversion/craving are necessary for suffering (note: I’ve only partially experienced this).
Although I think you’re expressing skepticism of craving/aversion as the only necessary cause of suffering for all people? Or maybe just the 99.9999% reduction in suffering (ie the knife) vs a 99% reduction for all? What do you actually believe?
For me, I read a book that suggested many different experiments to try in a playful way. One was to pay attention to the “distance” between a my current state (e.g. “itching”) and a desired state (“not itching”), and it did feel worse the larger the “distance”. I could even intentionally make it feel larger or small and thought that was very interesting. In one limiting case, you don’t classify the two situations “itching” “not itching” as separate, so no suffering. In the other, it’s “the difference between heaven and hell”, lol. This book had >100 like these (though it is intended for advanced meditators, brag brag).
those jhana helmet people have pivoted to improving pedagogy w/ jhana retreats at $1-2k, I think for the purpose of gathering more jhana data, but then it became widely successful
I agree that emotional reaction can make the pain much worse. But I think that if you already are a reasonable sane adult, removing the emotional reaction would reduce the badness maybe by half. Even very experienced meditators can be overwhelmed by pain, if it is strong enough.
Reducing by half is still something worth doing. But I think we already are trying to get people there—the concepts of self-control, “no pain no gain”, stoicism, etc., are well-known even outside Buddhism.