I don’t buy that even Buddha himself could avoid the suffering from the most severe forms of pain, which are also the ones that matter most—which makes it pretty arrogant to claim that suffering is optional imo.
It’s more fair to say that there are practices by which, with much time and effort, one can partly untrain the habit of craving/aversion.
The assumption that these can be completely dropping the habit is entirely theoretical. The historical Buddha’s abilities are lost to history. Modern meditators can perform immense feats of pain tolerance, but I personally haven’t heard one claim to have completely eradicated the habit of suffering.
Therefore suffering is optional in the sense that poverty is optional. If you’ve got the time and energy to do a ton of work, you can reduce it.
This is not super helpful when a broke person is asking you for money.
Suffering isn’t optional in the usual sense of the word. You can’t just switch it off. You can reduce it with tons of work. (which, BTW, animals can’t even comprehend the possibility of—and most humans haven’t).
As I said, your inverse point, suffering without pain, is much more valid and valuable.
The assumption that these can be completely dropping the habit is entirely theoretical. The historical Buddha’s abilities are lost to history. Modern meditators can perform immense feats of pain tolerance, but I personally haven’t heard one claim to have completely eradicated the habit of suffering.
I believe Daniel Ingram makes such a claim by virtue of his claim of arhatship; if he still suffers then he cannot reasonably claim to be an arhat. He also has an anecdote of someone else he considers to be an arhat saying “This one is not suffering!” in response to a question at a retreat. I think it’s often the case that someone who has found the end of suffering doesn’t go around proclaiming it widely for various reasons.
More directly, I know a complete cessation of craving/aversion and therefore suffering is possible because I have experienced it; I do not suffer. I hesitate to make this claim publicly because I’m not interested in getting into debates about whether or not I actually do not suffer—I know so, and that’s enough for me. However, if it’s helpful to know that the complete cessation of suffering is actually attainable by a kind of existence proof, I do not mind speaking simply about what I know in my own experience(s).
I don’t buy that even Buddha himself could avoid the suffering from the most severe forms of pain, which are also the ones that matter most—which makes it pretty arrogant to claim that suffering is optional imo.
Which of the following claims would you disagree with?
Craving/aversion causes suffering; there is suffering if and only if there is craving/aversion.
There are practices by which one can untrain the habit of craving/aversion with careful attention and intention.
In the limit, these practices can result in totally dropping the habit of craving/aversion, regardless of circumstance.
The Buddha practiced in such a manner as to totally stop craving/aversion, regardless of circumstance.
Therefore, the Buddha would not be averse to even the most extreme pain and therefore not suffer even in the most painful circumstances possible.
It’s more fair to say that there are practices by which, with much time and effort, one can partly untrain the habit of craving/aversion.
The assumption that these can be completely dropping the habit is entirely theoretical. The historical Buddha’s abilities are lost to history. Modern meditators can perform immense feats of pain tolerance, but I personally haven’t heard one claim to have completely eradicated the habit of suffering.
Therefore suffering is optional in the sense that poverty is optional. If you’ve got the time and energy to do a ton of work, you can reduce it.
This is not super helpful when a broke person is asking you for money.
Suffering isn’t optional in the usual sense of the word. You can’t just switch it off. You can reduce it with tons of work. (which, BTW, animals can’t even comprehend the possibility of—and most humans haven’t).
As I said, your inverse point, suffering without pain, is much more valid and valuable.
I believe Daniel Ingram makes such a claim by virtue of his claim of arhatship; if he still suffers then he cannot reasonably claim to be an arhat. He also has an anecdote of someone else he considers to be an arhat saying “This one is not suffering!” in response to a question at a retreat. I think it’s often the case that someone who has found the end of suffering doesn’t go around proclaiming it widely for various reasons.
More directly, I know a complete cessation of craving/aversion and therefore suffering is possible because I have experienced it; I do not suffer. I hesitate to make this claim publicly because I’m not interested in getting into debates about whether or not I actually do not suffer—I know so, and that’s enough for me. However, if it’s helpful to know that the complete cessation of suffering is actually attainable by a kind of existence proof, I do not mind speaking simply about what I know in my own experience(s).