did you agree with my statement that water flowing downhill was essentially an optimisation process? If not, maybe I should say something now.
I did not agree, but I don’t think you should say something now. I don’t think it is useful to call the natural progression to a state of minimum free energy ‘an optimization process’.
Admittedly, it does share some features with rational decision making and natural selection—notably the existence of an ‘objective function’ and a promise of monotone progress toward the ‘objective’ without the promise of an optimal final result within a finite time.
But it lacks a property that I will call ‘retargetability’. By adjusting the environment we can redefine fitness—causing NS to send a population in a completely different evolutionary direction. We are still ‘optimizing’ fitness, and doing so using the same mechanisms, but the meaning of fitness has changed.
Similarly, by training a rational agent to have different tastes, we can redefine utility—causing rational decision making to choose a completely different set of actions. We are still ‘optimizing’ utility, and doing so using the same mechanisms, but the meaning of utility has changed.
I find it more difficult to imagine “retargeting” the meaning of ‘downhill’ for flowing water. And, if you postulate some artificial environment (iron balls rolling on a table with magnets placed underneath the table) in which mechanics plus dissipation leads to some tunable result, … well then i might agree to call that process an optimization process.
You can do gradient descent (optimisation) on arbitrary 1D / 2D functions with it—and adding more dimensions is not that conceptually challenging.
I am not sure what optimisation problem can’t easily have cold water poured on it ;-)
Also, “retargetability” sounds as though it is your own specification.
I don’t see much about being “retargetable” here. So, it seems as though this is not a standard concern. If you wish to continue to claim that “retargetability” is to do with optimisation, I think you should provide a supporting reference.
FWIW, optimisation implies quite a bit more than just monotonic increase. You get a monotonic increase from 2LoT—which is a different idea, with less to do with the concept of optimisation. The idea of “maximising entropy” constrains expectations a lot more than the second law alone does.
I did not agree, but I don’t think you should say something now. I don’t think it is useful to call the natural progression to a state of minimum free energy ‘an optimization process’.
Admittedly, it does share some features with rational decision making and natural selection—notably the existence of an ‘objective function’ and a promise of monotone progress toward the ‘objective’ without the promise of an optimal final result within a finite time.
But it lacks a property that I will call ‘retargetability’. By adjusting the environment we can redefine fitness—causing NS to send a population in a completely different evolutionary direction. We are still ‘optimizing’ fitness, and doing so using the same mechanisms, but the meaning of fitness has changed.
Similarly, by training a rational agent to have different tastes, we can redefine utility—causing rational decision making to choose a completely different set of actions. We are still ‘optimizing’ utility, and doing so using the same mechanisms, but the meaning of utility has changed.
I find it more difficult to imagine “retargeting” the meaning of ‘downhill’ for flowing water. And, if you postulate some artificial environment (iron balls rolling on a table with magnets placed underneath the table) in which mechanics plus dissipation leads to some tunable result, … well then i might agree to call that process an optimization process.
You can do gradient descent (optimisation) on arbitrary 1D / 2D functions with it—and adding more dimensions is not that conceptually challenging.
I am not sure what optimisation problem can’t easily have cold water poured on it ;-)
Also, “retargetability” sounds as though it is your own specification.
I don’t see much about being “retargetable” here. So, it seems as though this is not a standard concern. If you wish to continue to claim that “retargetability” is to do with optimisation, I think you should provide a supporting reference.
FWIW, optimisation implies quite a bit more than just monotonic increase. You get a monotonic increase from 2LoT—which is a different idea, with less to do with the concept of optimisation. The idea of “maximising entropy” constrains expectations a lot more than the second law alone does.