do you expect people to change their voting behavior to not downvote to −4 except for trolling
And he answered:
And yes, I’d wistfully hope for some amount of community norm-change around, “If it’s worth replying to, clearly it can’t be so bad that I ought to vote it down to −4”
So apparently he does want people to be aware of the mechanism while voting.
I really dislike this. It makes me feel like we all have the responsibility to upvote downvoted threads if we happen to notice discussion going on downstream. After all, if discussion is happening, then it should be greater than −4, and so we should upvote in circumstances where we otherwise would have not voted.
I like the option of not voting. I upvote when I see something I think we should have more of, leave alone the majority of stuff, and downvote only when I see something inappropriate. Our choices are NOT binary, but ternary. Yet this new system of hiding at −4 takes away my choice to not upvote. If I see worthwhile discussion downstream, I feel obligated to upvote.
“If it’s worth replying to, clearly it can’t be so bad that I ought to vote it down to −4”
I’m not sure how I’d even notice if this norm were in place or not. After all, a −4 comment with replies is not evidence that there exists a person who both voted it down to −4 and replied.
However, my (motivated, I admit) reading of that text is that Eliezer wants to bring attention to a paradox of downvoting a comment anddiscussing below the comment. Either the comment is an interesting discussion-starter, and then it should not be downvoted; or the comment is worthless, and then people should not start a discussion below it. Downvoting a comment and discussing below it is kind of supporting something you oppose.
But, if it’s a newbie and you knew that changing it from a −3 to a −4 would end the discussion, wouldn’t you just not down vote it, and explain your problem or correction?
This new change seems to me to be a way for someone to end a conversation, though they had to have 3 other people help them get it there. Is that an intentional change we want to make?
I was arguing against EY’s argument mentioned by Viliam_Bur in favour of this change, which I’m opposed to. Of course, given that the change has been implemented, I won’t downvote a post at −3 unless it’s obvious spam or something.
Not just metaphorically. People are behaviorally reinforced into trolls because attention is reward and provocation gets attention. By downvoting something and commenting in reply to it, you are building positive associations to getting downvoted, a rather psychologically-sick sort of internal state that is a very bad thing to do to anyone. Would you consider it a nice thing to do to follow somebody around and give them a smile and a kiss each time they lost their temper or experienced some other failure of will, so as to reinforce that behavior? No, right?
Ok, the next question is whether being voted below −3 is a good proxy for a comment being provocation for the sake of response.
For example, I strongly suspect eridu simply honestly believes the insane ideas he espouses, does he count as “provocation for the sake of response”, if not what do you think the appropriate response to his comments should have been?
why do so many people accuse others of wanting attention when the actions prompting it are entirely not focused on other people at all, while they don’t tell people that starting conversations is attention seeking even though it is?
Almost all comments are posted at least in part for the sake of response. What’s provocation? In particular, how is it different from nonconformism?
I asked Eliezer:
And he answered:
So apparently he does want people to be aware of the mechanism while voting.
I really dislike this. It makes me feel like we all have the responsibility to upvote downvoted threads if we happen to notice discussion going on downstream. After all, if discussion is happening, then it should be greater than −4, and so we should upvote in circumstances where we otherwise would have not voted.
I like the option of not voting. I upvote when I see something I think we should have more of, leave alone the majority of stuff, and downvote only when I see something inappropriate. Our choices are NOT binary, but ternary. Yet this new system of hiding at −4 takes away my choice to not upvote. If I see worthwhile discussion downstream, I feel obligated to upvote.
I’m not sure how I’d even notice if this norm were in place or not. After all, a −4 comment with replies is not evidence that there exists a person who both voted it down to −4 and replied.
Thank you for the link!
However, my (motivated, I admit) reading of that text is that Eliezer wants to bring attention to a paradox of downvoting a comment and discussing below the comment. Either the comment is an interesting discussion-starter, and then it should not be downvoted; or the comment is worthless, and then people should not start a discussion below it. Downvoting a comment and discussing below it is kind of supporting something you oppose.
If it’s a seriously misguided but good-faith comment by a newbie, I might want to downvote it and explain why I did it. Hanlon’s razor.
But, if it’s a newbie and you knew that changing it from a −3 to a −4 would end the discussion, wouldn’t you just not down vote it, and explain your problem or correction?
This new change seems to me to be a way for someone to end a conversation, though they had to have 3 other people help them get it there. Is that an intentional change we want to make?
I was arguing against EY’s argument mentioned by Viliam_Bur in favour of this change, which I’m opposed to. Of course, given that the change has been implemented, I won’t downvote a post at −3 unless it’s obvious spam or something.
Not just metaphorically. People are behaviorally reinforced into trolls because attention is reward and provocation gets attention. By downvoting something and commenting in reply to it, you are building positive associations to getting downvoted, a rather psychologically-sick sort of internal state that is a very bad thing to do to anyone. Would you consider it a nice thing to do to follow somebody around and give them a smile and a kiss each time they lost their temper or experienced some other failure of will, so as to reinforce that behavior? No, right?
Could you taboo “trolling”. I think several distinct things are being lumped under that word. Here are the kind of posts that tend to get downvoted:
1) Simply being obnoxious, e.g., “First Post!!!!”. As far as I know, these are almost non-existent here.
2) Someone arguing for a crazy position they don’t believe.
3) Someone who genuinely believes a crazy position.
4) Someone arguing for a reasonable position that causes some voters to get mind-killed.
Which subset of these do you mean by “trolling” and what do you think is the appropriate response to each?
You forget 5) Someone arguing for a position (crazy or otherwise) in a deliberately provocative way.
Trolling: Provocation for the sake of response.
Ok, the next question is whether being voted below −3 is a good proxy for a comment being provocation for the sake of response.
For example, I strongly suspect eridu simply honestly believes the insane ideas he espouses, does he count as “provocation for the sake of response”, if not what do you think the appropriate response to his comments should have been?
Pattern-match:
Almost all comments are posted at least in part for the sake of response. What’s provocation? In particular, how is it different from nonconformism?