Fine, Eliezer, as someone who would really like to think/believe that there’s Ultimate Truth (not based in perception) to be found, I’ll bite.
I don’t think you are steelmanning post-modernists in your post. Suppose I am a member of a cult X—we believe that we can leap off of Everest and fly/not die. You and I watch my fellow cult-member jump off a cliff. You see him smash himself dead. I am so deluded (“deluded”) that all I see is my friend soaring in the sky. You, within your system, evaluate me as crazy. I might think the same of you.
You might think that the example is overblown and this doesn’t actually happen, but I’ve had discussions (mostly religious) in which other people and I would look at the same set of facts and see radically, radically different things. I’m sure you’ve been in such situations too. It’s just that I don’t find it comforting to dismiss such people as ‘crazy/flawed/etc.’ when they can easily do the same to me in their minds/groups, putting us in equivalent positions—the other person is wrong within our own system of reference (which each side declares to be ‘true’ in describing reality) and doesn’t understand it.
Now, I’m not trying to be ridiculous or troll. I really, really want to think that there’s one truth and that rationality—and not some other method—is the way to get to it. But at the very fundamental level (see http://lesswrong.com/lw/s0/where_recursive_justification_hits_bottom/ ), it seems like a choice between picking from various axioms.
I wish the arguments you presented here convinced me, I really do. But they haven’t, and I have no way of knowing that I’m not in some matrix-simulated world where everything is, really, based on how my perception was programmed. How does this work for you—do you just start off with assumption that there is truth, and go from there? At some fundamental level, don’t you believe that your perception just.. works and describes reality ‘correctly,’ after adjusting for all the biases? Please convince me to pick this route, I’d rather take it, instead of waiting for a philosopher of perfect emptiness to present a way to view the world without any assumptions.
(I understand that ‘everything is relative to my perception’ gets you pretty much nowhere in reality. It’s just that I don’t have a way to perfectly counter that, and it bothers me. And if I did find all of your arguments persuasive, I would be concerned if that’s just an artifact of how my brain is wired [crudely speaking] -- while some other person can read a religious text and, similarly, find it compelling/non-contradictory/‘makes-sense-ey’ so that the axioms this person would use wouldn’t require explanation [because of that other person’s nature/nurture]).
If I slipped somewhere myself, please steelman my argument in responding!
I sort of get the point. I remember once reading here that the reason it is a decent choice to use certain axioms also used in rationality and science is that those axioms have a pretty decent track record of helping to find out truth. A track record better than say...philosophy?
have a pretty decent track record of helping to find out truth.
How do you know? Science can make accurate predictions, and advise courses of action that work practically...but both of those would still be true inside the Matrix. If you think that truth is correspondence ,as rationalists are supposed to, then there is no way of proving that science is finding the truth, because there is no separate criterion that tells you correspondence has been achieved.
A track record better than say...philosophy?
Philosophy doesn’t have the option of passing off one kind of truth for another...someone would notice.
There is a criterion that tells you when correspondence has likely been achieved: Serialized experimental testing. Nothings is ever ABSOLUTELY EVER TRULY PROVEN, it’s just that if you have a belief that can accurately precise future events (experiments), then that is a strong indicator that on some level you have knowledge about the true shape of reality.
I don’t assume that we are inside the matrix as a matter of fact. I note that if we were, hypothetically, science would work just as well at making predictions, whilst failing completely at identifying the nature of reality. That’s how I am arguing that prediction and correspondence are not identical.
There is a criterion that tells you when correspondence has likely been achieved: Serialized experimental testing.
That’s a cached though for many people. The question is how does prediction lead to corresponence?
Nothings is ever ABSOLUTELY EVER TRULY PROVEN
Maybe not, but that’s not the problem. If you could make 100% accurate predictions inside the matrix, you would still have the problem outlined above.
due to the nature of the matrix-issue, it seems that in such case we wouldn’t be able to tell that we are in the matrix. at least until that which enables the characters to tell that they are in the matrix happens to you.
however, our succesful predictions still would be able to tell us something true: that inside the matrix, physical attributes of the simulation work a certain way.
I think that succesful prediction leads to correspondence because it signals that the way you think the world is, is the way in which the world actually is. Of course, one must critically analyze every concrete case, since it’s easy to misinterpret data.
however, our succesful predictions still would be able to tell us something true: that inside the matrix, physical attributes of the simulation work a certain way.
Except that its not real physics.
I think that succesful prediction leads to correspondence because it signals that the way you think the world is, is the way in which the world actually is.
I admit my ignorance of physics. Still, the point stands: even though we wouldn’t know that we were inside the Matrix, we would know how a part of it works: the “physics simulator”, even though we have a “wrong” label for it, “reality” instead of “matrix simulation”.
How? Interesting. How what? How it signals? You have concepts that represent how you think things are, inside your mind you imagine some way in which they would interact given the characteristics you think they have, and realize what you would (truly) have to perceive in order to confirm that interaction.
If you experiment and find out, after an honest analysis, that indeed that event was perceived, it would mean that the characteristics that you imagined the things have are indeed posesed by the things, if not they wouldn’t interacted like you imagined. All of this in the case you know everything there is no know about something. One should never claim to have absolute truth, because if you are wrong you won’t be able to be corrected. But of course, one can perfectly say that they have very strong reasons to believe something, because there is a history of evidence backing up that the world would work a certain way and no particular reason to believe that, for some reason, you what you believe is false and the evidence backing your false beliefs are invalid for some ??? reason. Obviously, if there is a certain anomaly that doesn’t fit the model of how the world works, by all means it should be investigated. Of course, we are always discovering new information but there is a core body ok knowledge with a lot of evidence behind it.
After writing this, i think that right now i don’t have the skills to put what you want to hear into words.
The downvotes and no reply are a pretty good example of what’s wrong with less wrong. Someone who is genuinely confused should not be shooed away then insulted when they ask again.
First of all remember to do and be what’s best. If this doubt is engendering good attitudes in you, why not keep it? The rest of this is premised on it not helping or being unhelpful.
External reality is much more likely than being part of a simulation which adjusts itself to your beliefs because a simulation which adjusts itself to your beliefs is way, way more complicated. It requires more assumptions than a single level reality. If there’s a programmer of your reality, that programmer has a reality too, which needs to be explained in the same way a single level one should as does their ability to program such a lifelike entity and all sorts of other things.
More fundamentally though, this is just the reality you live in, whatever its position in a potential reality chain.
If we are being simulated, trying to metagame potential matrix lords’ dispositions/ ask for favours/look for loopholes/care less about its contents is only a bug of human cognition. If this is a simulation, it is inhabited by at least me, and almost certainly many other people, and there’s real consequences for all of us. If you don’t earn your simulation rent you’ll get kicked out of your simulation place. Qualify everything with “potentially simulated-” and it changes nothing. “Real” just isn’t a useful (and so, important) distinction to make in first person reguarding simulations.
and/or you could short circuit any debilitating doubt using fighting games or sports (or engaging in other similiar activities) which illustrate the potential importance of leaning all in towards the evidence without worrying about the nature of things, and are a good way to train that habit.
Also, in this potentially simulated world, social pressure is a real thing. The more infallible and sensitive you make your thinking (or allow it to be) the more prone it is to interference from people who want to disrupt you, unless you’re willing to cut yourself off from people to some extent. When someone gives you an idiotic objection (and there are a lot of those here), the more nuanced your own view actually is the harder it will be to explain and the less likely people will listen fairly. You could just say whatever you think is going to influence them best but that adds a layer of complexity and is another tradeoff. If you’re not going to try to be a “philosopher of perfect emptiness” taking external reality as an assumption is the most reliable to work with your human mind, and not confuse it: how are you supposed to act if there are matrix lords? There’s nothing to go on so any leaning such beliefs (beliefs which shouldn’t change your approaches or attitudes) prompts is bound to be a bias.
Fine, Eliezer, as someone who would really like to think/believe that there’s Ultimate Truth (not based in perception) to be found, I’ll bite.
I don’t think you are steelmanning post-modernists in your post. Suppose I am a member of a cult X—we believe that we can leap off of Everest and fly/not die. You and I watch my fellow cult-member jump off a cliff. You see him smash himself dead. I am so deluded (“deluded”) that all I see is my friend soaring in the sky. You, within your system, evaluate me as crazy. I might think the same of you.
You might think that the example is overblown and this doesn’t actually happen, but I’ve had discussions (mostly religious) in which other people and I would look at the same set of facts and see radically, radically different things. I’m sure you’ve been in such situations too. It’s just that I don’t find it comforting to dismiss such people as ‘crazy/flawed/etc.’ when they can easily do the same to me in their minds/groups, putting us in equivalent positions—the other person is wrong within our own system of reference (which each side declares to be ‘true’ in describing reality) and doesn’t understand it.
I think this ties in with http://lesswrong.com/lw/rn/no_universally_compelling_arguments/ .
Now, I’m not trying to be ridiculous or troll. I really, really want to think that there’s one truth and that rationality—and not some other method—is the way to get to it. But at the very fundamental level (see http://lesswrong.com/lw/s0/where_recursive_justification_hits_bottom/ ), it seems like a choice between picking from various axioms.
I wish the arguments you presented here convinced me, I really do. But they haven’t, and I have no way of knowing that I’m not in some matrix-simulated world where everything is, really, based on how my perception was programmed. How does this work for you—do you just start off with assumption that there is truth, and go from there? At some fundamental level, don’t you believe that your perception just.. works and describes reality ‘correctly,’ after adjusting for all the biases? Please convince me to pick this route, I’d rather take it, instead of waiting for a philosopher of perfect emptiness to present a way to view the world without any assumptions.
(I understand that ‘everything is relative to my perception’ gets you pretty much nowhere in reality. It’s just that I don’t have a way to perfectly counter that, and it bothers me. And if I did find all of your arguments persuasive, I would be concerned if that’s just an artifact of how my brain is wired [crudely speaking] -- while some other person can read a religious text and, similarly, find it compelling/non-contradictory/‘makes-sense-ey’ so that the axioms this person would use wouldn’t require explanation [because of that other person’s nature/nurture]).
If I slipped somewhere myself, please steelman my argument in responding!
I sort of get the point. I remember once reading here that the reason it is a decent choice to use certain axioms also used in rationality and science is that those axioms have a pretty decent track record of helping to find out truth. A track record better than say...philosophy?
How do you know? Science can make accurate predictions, and advise courses of action that work practically...but both of those would still be true inside the Matrix. If you think that truth is correspondence ,as rationalists are supposed to, then there is no way of proving that science is finding the truth, because there is no separate criterion that tells you correspondence has been achieved.
Philosophy doesn’t have the option of passing off one kind of truth for another...someone would notice.
Why do you assume that we are inside the Matrix?
There is a criterion that tells you when correspondence has likely been achieved: Serialized experimental testing. Nothings is ever ABSOLUTELY EVER TRULY PROVEN, it’s just that if you have a belief that can accurately precise future events (experiments), then that is a strong indicator that on some level you have knowledge about the true shape of reality.
I don’t assume that we are inside the matrix as a matter of fact. I note that if we were, hypothetically, science would work just as well at making predictions, whilst failing completely at identifying the nature of reality. That’s how I am arguing that prediction and correspondence are not identical.
That’s a cached though for many people. The question is how does prediction lead to corresponence?
Maybe not, but that’s not the problem. If you could make 100% accurate predictions inside the matrix, you would still have the problem outlined above.
due to the nature of the matrix-issue, it seems that in such case we wouldn’t be able to tell that we are in the matrix. at least until that which enables the characters to tell that they are in the matrix happens to you.
however, our succesful predictions still would be able to tell us something true: that inside the matrix, physical attributes of the simulation work a certain way.
I think that succesful prediction leads to correspondence because it signals that the way you think the world is, is the way in which the world actually is. Of course, one must critically analyze every concrete case, since it’s easy to misinterpret data.
Except that its not real physics.
How?
I admit my ignorance of physics. Still, the point stands: even though we wouldn’t know that we were inside the Matrix, we would know how a part of it works: the “physics simulator”, even though we have a “wrong” label for it, “reality” instead of “matrix simulation”.
How? Interesting. How what? How it signals? You have concepts that represent how you think things are, inside your mind you imagine some way in which they would interact given the characteristics you think they have, and realize what you would (truly) have to perceive in order to confirm that interaction.
If you experiment and find out, after an honest analysis, that indeed that event was perceived, it would mean that the characteristics that you imagined the things have are indeed posesed by the things, if not they wouldn’t interacted like you imagined. All of this in the case you know everything there is no know about something. One should never claim to have absolute truth, because if you are wrong you won’t be able to be corrected. But of course, one can perfectly say that they have very strong reasons to believe something, because there is a history of evidence backing up that the world would work a certain way and no particular reason to believe that, for some reason, you what you believe is false and the evidence backing your false beliefs are invalid for some ??? reason. Obviously, if there is a certain anomaly that doesn’t fit the model of how the world works, by all means it should be investigated. Of course, we are always discovering new information but there is a core body ok knowledge with a lot of evidence behind it.
After writing this, i think that right now i don’t have the skills to put what you want to hear into words.
If this wasn’t clear: responses would be much more helpful than up/down votes.
I downvoted your comment because it was unclear to me what your point was. It seems to me that it lacks a single, precise focus.
I have the same problem with the OP?
The downvotes and no reply are a pretty good example of what’s wrong with less wrong. Someone who is genuinely confused should not be shooed away then insulted when they ask again.
First of all remember to do and be what’s best. If this doubt is engendering good attitudes in you, why not keep it? The rest of this is premised on it not helping or being unhelpful.
External reality is much more likely than being part of a simulation which adjusts itself to your beliefs because a simulation which adjusts itself to your beliefs is way, way more complicated. It requires more assumptions than a single level reality. If there’s a programmer of your reality, that programmer has a reality too, which needs to be explained in the same way a single level one should as does their ability to program such a lifelike entity and all sorts of other things.
More fundamentally though, this is just the reality you live in, whatever its position in a potential reality chain.
If we are being simulated, trying to metagame potential matrix lords’ dispositions/ ask for favours/look for loopholes/care less about its contents is only a bug of human cognition. If this is a simulation, it is inhabited by at least me, and almost certainly many other people, and there’s real consequences for all of us. If you don’t earn your simulation rent you’ll get kicked out of your simulation place. Qualify everything with “potentially simulated-” and it changes nothing. “Real” just isn’t a useful (and so, important) distinction to make in first person reguarding simulations.
and/or you could short circuit any debilitating doubt using fighting games or sports (or engaging in other similiar activities) which illustrate the potential importance of leaning all in towards the evidence without worrying about the nature of things, and are a good way to train that habit.
Also, in this potentially simulated world, social pressure is a real thing. The more infallible and sensitive you make your thinking (or allow it to be) the more prone it is to interference from people who want to disrupt you, unless you’re willing to cut yourself off from people to some extent. When someone gives you an idiotic objection (and there are a lot of those here), the more nuanced your own view actually is the harder it will be to explain and the less likely people will listen fairly. You could just say whatever you think is going to influence them best but that adds a layer of complexity and is another tradeoff. If you’re not going to try to be a “philosopher of perfect emptiness” taking external reality as an assumption is the most reliable to work with your human mind, and not confuse it: how are you supposed to act if there are matrix lords? There’s nothing to go on so any leaning such beliefs (beliefs which shouldn’t change your approaches or attitudes) prompts is bound to be a bias.