Sorry, I had trouble following your chain of logic. Maybe it would help if I express mine, it probably matches some standard philosophical model to some degree. The basic point is that people have some sensory experiences which we can model and predict reasonably accurately (like seeing rocks fall to the ground). We can also affect these experiences (for example, by throwing said rocks before seeing them fall). Next, we can certainly anticipate to some how our actions affect our future experiences (throwing rocks in order to see them fall). So the first trivial model is that there is an input stream (sensory experiences) and an output stream (actions), and some processing in between. This processing is what I mean by “models”. Some of these are innate, others learned. Some models are useful (they predict future experiences well), some not so useful (like “black cats are bad luck”). One of those models is “there is this thingy from which experiences come from, let’s call it reality”. This happens to be an excellent model, very useful in many cases, because it predicts our future sensory experiences so well. So much so, it is easy to forget that this is but a model. If you forget it, then you start asking questions like “are all possible worlds real?” and other modal realism silliness. Indeed, to me “real” means only one thing: it’s a part of that shiny model that states that our experiences come from “reality”. Do modal realists seriously suggest that our experiences come from “all possible worlds”? Not as far as I know, given that one world seems to be plenty. This dissolves (for me) the modal realism questions, the QM interpretational questions and other dangling notions like “objective truth”.
This approach may some day prove too cautious if, say, we find evidence that we are a simulation and the way the simulation is constructed includes that immutable reality from which our experiences come from. On that day I might be persuaded to become a realist. Until then, I am happy to agree that reality is a good model, it explains repeatable experiences and alleviates the worries about the sun not rising tomorrow for no good reason.
How are you conceiving of this output stream of actions? If you think of it as just a set of experiences (e.g. the experience of throwing a rock), then I don’t see how it’s distinct from the input stream. If you think of it as actual actions, like actually throwing a rock, then it seems to me you’ve already committed yourself at this stage to an external reality—how can you a throw a rock if there are no rocks or, for that matter, if you have no limbs? -- and “reality” isn’t just an explanatory model linking your input and output streams.
You have a point, the only feedback of an action being taken is from the subsequent inputs, so I suppose I should think of simple actions as micro-models. Thanks. The meta-model of external reality comes in handy when you don’t want to over-think it. What else did I miss?
I’m having some trouble understanding you, because I’m not sure what you mean when you use the word ‘model’. Could you explain that more directly? Assume my only grasp on the word has to do with small plastic airplanes.
:) I wish I could start with small plastic airplanes… By a model I mean an algorithm taking existing inputs and predicting future ones. I’m sure there are more formal definitions around.
One of those models is “there is this thingy from which experiences come from, let’s call it reality”
Or, to give it is full title, “there is this thingy from which experiences come from, let’s call it reality, and it is in the territory
and not part of the map”
it predicts our future sensory experiences so well. So much so, it is easy to forget that this is but a model.
Who’s forgetting what? Our meta-model of model-making is that you can make as many models as you like of something, and the original doens’t vanish. Making a model of the territory doens’t turn it into a map.
If you forget it, then you start asking questions like “are all possible worlds real?” and other modal realism silliness. I
Well, you’ve thrown out the single world as well. All the babies went out with the bathwater.
This dissolves (for me)[..]other dangling notions like “objective truth”.
I’ll say. Once you have asumed that the territory is just another map, it becomes impossible to explain why anyone
would care about getting into alignment with it.
t reality is a good model, it explains repeatable experiences
“I have a model which says my exeriences will repeat, therefore they will repeat”. Hmmmm.
You’re making some good points. Unfortunately, shminux is often just that easy to pattern-match with “naive postmodernist” stereotypes, which doesn’t help for charitable interpretation.
In my experience, his points are usually more coherent than this (or, in most cases, more coherent than an average interpretation of his posts’ contents would suggest).
Basically, AFAICT, shminux draws the boundaries for the term/concept “reality” in a slightly different area/manner, one that allows him to remove the node “external territory” entirely without sacrificing practical points like “believing I can fly doesn’t prevent me from going splat if I jump off a building”. The utility of this difference is apparently obvious to him, and debated by others.
The charitable interpretation is that shminux always implies in his points something similar to Eliezer’s notions that you can’t just step outside of your own perceptions to see the territory directly, but do have some mechanisms already in place that receive “new” information from somewhere which you have no control over, which is what (AFAICT) shminux calls “reality”.
That’s a little too charitable though, since that’s effectively the view shminux is arguing against.
That’s a good point, if your assessment of what shminux argues against is better than mine. It probably is, since I can’t yet make useful predictions on this.
You’re using an AIXI-like notion of senses and actions related by a turing machine or other computation? Isn’t such a model annoyingly incomplete in that it can by design provide no explanation for how the input and output streams themselves came about?
provide no explanation for how the input and output streams themselves came about?
Right, you postulate input streams and use the feedback from our intentions to act back to the input streams to define outputs. Whether this is more complicated than postulating external reality is a separate discussion.
Um, I don’t think I’m concerned with “complexity” as such. It’s more like...
Consider the Newtonian universe. “This place” is a euclidean space full of little billiard balls bouncing back and forth. You can point at some subset of the universe and say “that’s me”. If I ask “why am I seeing [something]?” you can answer that with “because that thing there is a brain, the one computing your experience of consciousness, and it is attached to eyes which happen to be looking at [something]”. I guess, it’s reductionist.
In the AIXI/instrumentalist model, “sensory input” doesn’t seem to reduce to anything else, and the self is “taken for granted”. Doesn’t that bother you?
In the AIXI/instrumentalist model, “sensory input” doesn’t seem to reduce to anything else, and the self is “taken for granted”. Doesn’t that bother you?
it does. But I prefer this over futile arguments over QM interpretations, modal realism and whatever Tegmark writes. Possibly this is a false dichotomy, and I’d be happy to subscribe to an idea of external reality which did not lead to such debates, but I am yet to come across one.
Throwing the rock doesn’t prove that the rock exists. By the time that you concretize to the point that you can talk about interacting with the world, you have already made some completely unjustifiable assumptions about how the world works. What premise allows you to make the jump from “I perceive that there is a rock there” to “There is a rock there”?
The hypothesis that reality is impermanent is nonfalsifiable; there is no way to show evidence for or against the theory that the universe came into existence already a consistent whole, including my memories of beginning to type this post. There is also no way to differentiate a universe which came into existence a moment ago and will pass out of existence in a moment from the persistent model that you use.
Throwing the rock doesn’t prove that the rock exists.
I never used the word “exist” in relation to physical objects once. Clearly you have sensory inputs which are best explained by the rock in question existing, though. As I said, reality is a useful model. The rest of your logic is pure strawman.
Could you give me some feedback on whether this response contains a more appropriate description of your point? I’ve skipped over some important stuff at the end as for what exactly your model entails, but I believe with some more explanation you’d obviously describe things better than I currently could.
You seem to be getting this sort of response a lot. You should probably increase your credence in the hypothesis that you’re being unclear, rather than that everyone is deliberately misrepresenting you.
If the world existed only as a suitably advanced hallucination, would your experiences would not be different. A hallucination which at this moment is remembered to have had followed certain rules is under no obligation to continue to follow those rules.
Sorry, I had trouble following your chain of logic. Maybe it would help if I express mine, it probably matches some standard philosophical model to some degree. The basic point is that people have some sensory experiences which we can model and predict reasonably accurately (like seeing rocks fall to the ground). We can also affect these experiences (for example, by throwing said rocks before seeing them fall). Next, we can certainly anticipate to some how our actions affect our future experiences (throwing rocks in order to see them fall). So the first trivial model is that there is an input stream (sensory experiences) and an output stream (actions), and some processing in between. This processing is what I mean by “models”. Some of these are innate, others learned. Some models are useful (they predict future experiences well), some not so useful (like “black cats are bad luck”). One of those models is “there is this thingy from which experiences come from, let’s call it reality”. This happens to be an excellent model, very useful in many cases, because it predicts our future sensory experiences so well. So much so, it is easy to forget that this is but a model. If you forget it, then you start asking questions like “are all possible worlds real?” and other modal realism silliness. Indeed, to me “real” means only one thing: it’s a part of that shiny model that states that our experiences come from “reality”. Do modal realists seriously suggest that our experiences come from “all possible worlds”? Not as far as I know, given that one world seems to be plenty. This dissolves (for me) the modal realism questions, the QM interpretational questions and other dangling notions like “objective truth”.
This approach may some day prove too cautious if, say, we find evidence that we are a simulation and the way the simulation is constructed includes that immutable reality from which our experiences come from. On that day I might be persuaded to become a realist. Until then, I am happy to agree that reality is a good model, it explains repeatable experiences and alleviates the worries about the sun not rising tomorrow for no good reason.
How are you conceiving of this output stream of actions? If you think of it as just a set of experiences (e.g. the experience of throwing a rock), then I don’t see how it’s distinct from the input stream. If you think of it as actual actions, like actually throwing a rock, then it seems to me you’ve already committed yourself at this stage to an external reality—how can you a throw a rock if there are no rocks or, for that matter, if you have no limbs? -- and “reality” isn’t just an explanatory model linking your input and output streams.
You have a point, the only feedback of an action being taken is from the subsequent inputs, so I suppose I should think of simple actions as micro-models. Thanks. The meta-model of external reality comes in handy when you don’t want to over-think it. What else did I miss?
I’m having some trouble understanding you, because I’m not sure what you mean when you use the word ‘model’. Could you explain that more directly? Assume my only grasp on the word has to do with small plastic airplanes.
:) I wish I could start with small plastic airplanes… By a model I mean an algorithm taking existing inputs and predicting future ones. I’m sure there are more formal definitions around.
Or, to give it is full title, “there is this thingy from which experiences come from, let’s call it reality, and it is in the territory and not part of the map”
Who’s forgetting what? Our meta-model of model-making is that you can make as many models as you like of something, and the original doens’t vanish. Making a model of the territory doens’t turn it into a map.
Well, you’ve thrown out the single world as well. All the babies went out with the bathwater.
I’ll say. Once you have asumed that the territory is just another map, it becomes impossible to explain why anyone would care about getting into alignment with it.
“I have a model which says my exeriences will repeat, therefore they will repeat”. Hmmmm.
You’re making some good points. Unfortunately, shminux is often just that easy to pattern-match with “naive postmodernist” stereotypes, which doesn’t help for charitable interpretation.
In my experience, his points are usually more coherent than this (or, in most cases, more coherent than an average interpretation of his posts’ contents would suggest).
The charitable interpretation is that shminux always implies in his points something similar to Eliezer’s notions that you can’t just step outside of your own perceptions to see the territory directly, but do have some mechanisms already in place that receive “new” information from somewhere which you have no control over, which is what (AFAICT) shminux calls “reality”.
Basically, AFAICT, shminux draws the boundaries for the term/concept “reality” in a slightly different area/manner, one that allows him to remove the node “external territory” entirely without sacrificing practical points like “believing I can fly doesn’t prevent me from going splat if I jump off a building”. The utility of this difference is apparently obvious to him, and debated by others.
That’s a little too charitable though, since that’s effectively the view shminux is arguing against.
That’s a good point, if your assessment of what shminux argues against is better than mine. It probably is, since I can’t yet make useful predictions on this.
You’re using an AIXI-like notion of senses and actions related by a turing machine or other computation? Isn’t such a model annoyingly incomplete in that it can by design provide no explanation for how the input and output streams themselves came about?
Right, you postulate input streams and use the feedback from our intentions to act back to the input streams to define outputs. Whether this is more complicated than postulating external reality is a separate discussion.
Um, I don’t think I’m concerned with “complexity” as such. It’s more like...
Consider the Newtonian universe. “This place” is a euclidean space full of little billiard balls bouncing back and forth. You can point at some subset of the universe and say “that’s me”. If I ask “why am I seeing [something]?” you can answer that with “because that thing there is a brain, the one computing your experience of consciousness, and it is attached to eyes which happen to be looking at [something]”. I guess, it’s reductionist.
In the AIXI/instrumentalist model, “sensory input” doesn’t seem to reduce to anything else, and the self is “taken for granted”. Doesn’t that bother you?
it does. But I prefer this over futile arguments over QM interpretations, modal realism and whatever Tegmark writes. Possibly this is a false dichotomy, and I’d be happy to subscribe to an idea of external reality which did not lead to such debates, but I am yet to come across one.
Throwing the rock doesn’t prove that the rock exists. By the time that you concretize to the point that you can talk about interacting with the world, you have already made some completely unjustifiable assumptions about how the world works. What premise allows you to make the jump from “I perceive that there is a rock there” to “There is a rock there”?
The hypothesis that reality is impermanent is nonfalsifiable; there is no way to show evidence for or against the theory that the universe came into existence already a consistent whole, including my memories of beginning to type this post. There is also no way to differentiate a universe which came into existence a moment ago and will pass out of existence in a moment from the persistent model that you use.
I never used the word “exist” in relation to physical objects once. Clearly you have sensory inputs which are best explained by the rock in question existing, though. As I said, reality is a useful model. The rest of your logic is pure strawman.
Could you give me some feedback on whether this response contains a more appropriate description of your point? I’ve skipped over some important stuff at the end as for what exactly your model entails, but I believe with some more explanation you’d obviously describe things better than I currently could.
I certainly agree with your last paragraph.
You seem to be getting this sort of response a lot. You should probably increase your credence in the hypothesis that you’re being unclear, rather than that everyone is deliberately misrepresenting you.
Reality is only a useful model within the model of reality; outside of the model of reality, having models is in general not useful.
What makes the model of reality ‘useful’, as opposed to any of the models which are mutually exclusive with reality?
Huh?
If the world existed only as a suitably advanced hallucination, would your experiences would not be different. A hallucination which at this moment is remembered to have had followed certain rules is under no obligation to continue to follow those rules.
So much for pure empiricism, then. However, Best Explanation deals with that just fine.