So, further to my earlier comment about teaching people how to be happy and how to flourish, I have a question to ask. Suppose that (for some reason) everyone in the world was always very happy with their lives. Would people even consider religion as a serious option in their hypothesis space? I don’t think so. Imagine trying to convert a citizen of Banks’ Culture to Christianity. Would they even take you seriously? Would it be like trying to convert a grown-up to belief in Santa Claus?
The catch is that highly-religious parents can make their kids unhappy… and thus put religion in a more attractive position. You’re talking about adults, here.
But yeah, salvation is a lot harder sell if you don’t feel like there’s anything you need to be saved from.
Well indeed. Why do Christians talk so much about Sin? Why do they emphasize the fact that you are a SINNER and Jesus will forgive you for your sin?
Suppose you’ve just cheated on your boyfriend and you’re feeling bad about yourself, that you are an evil person, etc. If, at that point, you are exposed to the Sin meme, and the corresponding solution that if you believe in God your sin will be washed away, why are you going to side with rationality? It would be irrational (from a hedonistic point of view) not to believe in God when in this situation…
Dunno, doesn’t seem much different from explaining that you’re not an evil person, your genes and current programming made you do it, and that you can both let it go—and feel better—AND change your programming so that you don’t do similar things in the future.
Religion doesn’t have a monopoly on forgiveness, after all. In order for it to work, there has to be something there in the brain that supports that function. And nothing stops rationalists from using that same mechanism. Hell, it’s a critical part of a set of techniques I teach for altering one kind of “self-esteem”.
Now, the idea that there’s somebody who loves you no matter what, that might still be attractive. But if everybody learns at a young enough age how to use forgiveness and other methods to address their broken beliefs and judgments, they should already be in the habit of doing that.
Of course, good luck trying to teach forgiveness in schools… Religious folks will positively freak about that, because they DO think they’ve got a monopoly on the process.
“Dunno, doesn’t seem much different from explaining that you’re not an evil person, your genes and current programming made you do it, and that you can both let it go—and feel better—AND change your programming so that you don’t do similar things in the future.”
but people don’t get told that they can think along those lines. Unless they see a psychiatrist… The default is for people to suffer lots of bad feelings about themselves. Religion probably acts as a psychiatrist replacement for many people. In fact if you think about what a psychiatrist does, its a lot like having someone to pray to; though most psychiatrists are less judgmental than the Christian god.
“Now, the idea that there’s somebody who loves you no matter what, that might still be attractive. But if everybody learns at a young enough age how to use forgiveness and other methods to address their broken beliefs and judgments,”
since most people currently don’t do this, this is a good potential strategy for rooting religion out. Which was kind of the point of my original comment.
Not all versions of Christianity are Sin-oriented, but those that are seem to get more traction in this era. There’ve been times when Unitarianism and Universalism (they used to be separate religion) and the Society of Friends (also known as Quakers)-- much more gentle religions—were spreading, but they never got huge.
I suggest that people are attracted to drama at least as much as they are to things which are likely to make their lives better.
There may be an underlying premise that “anything which attracts my attention must be worth paying attention to”.
So, further to my earlier comment about teaching people how to be happy and how to flourish, I have a question to ask. Suppose that (for some reason) everyone in the world was always very happy with their lives. Would people even consider religion as a serious option in their hypothesis space? I don’t think so. Imagine trying to convert a citizen of Banks’ Culture to Christianity. Would they even take you seriously? Would it be like trying to convert a grown-up to belief in Santa Claus?
The catch is that highly-religious parents can make their kids unhappy… and thus put religion in a more attractive position. You’re talking about adults, here.
But yeah, salvation is a lot harder sell if you don’t feel like there’s anything you need to be saved from.
Well indeed. Why do Christians talk so much about Sin? Why do they emphasize the fact that you are a SINNER and Jesus will forgive you for your sin?
Suppose you’ve just cheated on your boyfriend and you’re feeling bad about yourself, that you are an evil person, etc. If, at that point, you are exposed to the Sin meme, and the corresponding solution that if you believe in God your sin will be washed away, why are you going to side with rationality? It would be irrational (from a hedonistic point of view) not to believe in God when in this situation…
Dunno, doesn’t seem much different from explaining that you’re not an evil person, your genes and current programming made you do it, and that you can both let it go—and feel better—AND change your programming so that you don’t do similar things in the future.
Religion doesn’t have a monopoly on forgiveness, after all. In order for it to work, there has to be something there in the brain that supports that function. And nothing stops rationalists from using that same mechanism. Hell, it’s a critical part of a set of techniques I teach for altering one kind of “self-esteem”.
Now, the idea that there’s somebody who loves you no matter what, that might still be attractive. But if everybody learns at a young enough age how to use forgiveness and other methods to address their broken beliefs and judgments, they should already be in the habit of doing that.
Of course, good luck trying to teach forgiveness in schools… Religious folks will positively freak about that, because they DO think they’ve got a monopoly on the process.
“Dunno, doesn’t seem much different from explaining that you’re not an evil person, your genes and current programming made you do it, and that you can both let it go—and feel better—AND change your programming so that you don’t do similar things in the future.”
but people don’t get told that they can think along those lines. Unless they see a psychiatrist… The default is for people to suffer lots of bad feelings about themselves. Religion probably acts as a psychiatrist replacement for many people. In fact if you think about what a psychiatrist does, its a lot like having someone to pray to; though most psychiatrists are less judgmental than the Christian god.
“Now, the idea that there’s somebody who loves you no matter what, that might still be attractive. But if everybody learns at a young enough age how to use forgiveness and other methods to address their broken beliefs and judgments,”
since most people currently don’t do this, this is a good potential strategy for rooting religion out. Which was kind of the point of my original comment.
reasonable
Not all versions of Christianity are Sin-oriented, but those that are seem to get more traction in this era. There’ve been times when Unitarianism and Universalism (they used to be separate religion) and the Society of Friends (also known as Quakers)-- much more gentle religions—were spreading, but they never got huge.
I suggest that people are attracted to drama at least as much as they are to things which are likely to make their lives better.
There may be an underlying premise that “anything which attracts my attention must be worth paying attention to”.
Yes, something like that sounds reasonable. Perhaps it is more that people are attracted to polarity, drama and struggle.
Not really. If the high status folks have a religion,you’ll seek it.
yes.