Hm. That’s actually a pretty good answer. I too find I would prefer the Intellectual Porn Watcher to the Absorber. I will note, however, that the preference is rather weak. If you would give me $10 (or however much) in exchange for letting the Absorber exist rather than the Intellectual Porn Watcher, I’d take that, even for relatively low values of money. (I’m not quite sure of what the cuttoff is though, but it’s low). On the other hand, I think I’d be willing to give up a fair bit of money to have the Ambitious Intellectual exist rather than the Druggie.
Thinking about it in these terms is by no means perfect, but it allows me to solidify my view of my preferences. In any case, I’ll admit this is a good point.
I think the strongest reason to value certain identities over others is that otherwise, the most efficient way to create things-considered-valuable-to-us is to change who “us” is. Once we get good at AI or genetics, kill everyone and replace them with creatures who value things that are easier to manufacture than art and knowledge. Or, if we have an aversion to killing, just sterilize everyone and make sure all future creatures born are of this type. The fact that this seems absurdly evil indicates to me that we do value identity over utility to some extent.
See, “valuable” is a two place word, it takes as arguments both an object or state, and a valuer. Now, when I talk about this, I say “us” as the valuer, (and you can argue that I really should be only saying me, as our goal-systems are not necessarily aligned, but we’ll put that aside), but that specifically means the “us” that is having this conversation. Or to put it another way, if you ask me “How much do you value thing X?”, you can model it as me going to a black box inside my head and getting an answer. Of course, if you take out that black box and replace it with another one, the answer may be different. But, even if I know that tomorrow someone will come and do surgery to swap those “boxes”, that doesn’t change my answer today.
Sorry for rambling a bit. I’m not sure how best to explain it all. But I value art and knowledge. (To use your example.) If you replace me with someone who values paperclips, then that other person will go and do the things he values, like making paperclips and not art and knowledge, and I will hate him for that. I don’t like the world were he does that, as my utility function does not include terms for paperclips. He would value that world, and would fight tooth and claw to get to that worldstate. Nothing says we have to agree on what is the best worldstate, and nothing says I am obliged to bring about arbitrary wold states others want.
… Oh. Actually, on reading what you wrote over again, I think (in the last section, the points about ambition still stand) we are arguing over different things, and are more in agreement then we thought. You say you value “identity over utility” (to some extent). I think I interpreted that to mean something subtly different from what you meant.
By utility, you meant total utility of everyone (or maybe the average utility of everyone?) Realizing that, of course we value lots of things over “utility”, when “utility” is used in that sense. (I will call it ToAU, for “Total or Average Utility”, to avoid confusing it with what I will call MPU, “My Personal Utility”.)
Yess, what you make is a good point that ToAU is not what we should be maximizing. I agree. I was arguing that it is nonsensical to not value utility, as by definition, MPU is what we should be maximizing. (Ok, put aside for now, as before, that me and you may have slightly different goal systems and I so I should be using a different pronoun, either you, if I am talking about what you are maximising, or me, if we are talking about me.)
Now, MPU is quite the complex function, and for us, at least, it includes terms for art and science existing, for humans not being killed, for minimizing not only our (mine, your) personal suffering, but also for minimising global suffering. Altruism is a major part of MPU, make no mistake, I am not arguing that others’ opinions do not matter, at least for some value of “others”, definitely including all humans, and likely including many non humans. MPU does include a term for the enjoyment, happiness, identity, non-suffering, and so forth of those in this category, but (as you have shown) this category cannot be completely universal.
In fact, in the end, all this boils down to is that you were arguing against utilitarianism, while I was arguing for consequentialism, two very similar ethical systems, but profoundly different.
I was arguing that it is nonsensical to not value utility, as by definition, MPU is what we should be maximizing.
Sorry, I tend to carelessly use the word “utility” to mean “the stuff utilitarians want to maximize,” forgetting that many people will read it as “Von Neuman-Morgenstern Utility.” You actually aren’t the first person on Less Wrong I’ve done this to.
In fact, in the end, all this boils down to is that you were arguing against utilitarianism, while I was arguing for consequentialism, two very similar ethical systems, but profoundly different.
Hm. That’s actually a pretty good answer. I too find I would prefer the Intellectual Porn Watcher to the Absorber. I will note, however, that the preference is rather weak. If you would give me $10 (or however much) in exchange for letting the Absorber exist rather than the Intellectual Porn Watcher, I’d take that, even for relatively low values of money. (I’m not quite sure of what the cuttoff is though, but it’s low). On the other hand, I think I’d be willing to give up a fair bit of money to have the Ambitious Intellectual exist rather than the Druggie.
Thinking about it in these terms is by no means perfect, but it allows me to solidify my view of my preferences. In any case, I’ll admit this is a good point.
See, “valuable” is a two place word, it takes as arguments both an object or state, and a valuer. Now, when I talk about this, I say “us” as the valuer, (and you can argue that I really should be only saying me, as our goal-systems are not necessarily aligned, but we’ll put that aside), but that specifically means the “us” that is having this conversation. Or to put it another way, if you ask me “How much do you value thing X?”, you can model it as me going to a black box inside my head and getting an answer. Of course, if you take out that black box and replace it with another one, the answer may be different. But, even if I know that tomorrow someone will come and do surgery to swap those “boxes”, that doesn’t change my answer today.
Sorry for rambling a bit. I’m not sure how best to explain it all. But I value art and knowledge. (To use your example.) If you replace me with someone who values paperclips, then that other person will go and do the things he values, like making paperclips and not art and knowledge, and I will hate him for that. I don’t like the world were he does that, as my utility function does not include terms for paperclips. He would value that world, and would fight tooth and claw to get to that worldstate. Nothing says we have to agree on what is the best worldstate, and nothing says I am obliged to bring about arbitrary wold states others want.
… Oh. Actually, on reading what you wrote over again, I think (in the last section, the points about ambition still stand) we are arguing over different things, and are more in agreement then we thought. You say you value “identity over utility” (to some extent). I think I interpreted that to mean something subtly different from what you meant.
By utility, you meant total utility of everyone (or maybe the average utility of everyone?) Realizing that, of course we value lots of things over “utility”, when “utility” is used in that sense. (I will call it ToAU, for “Total or Average Utility”, to avoid confusing it with what I will call MPU, “My Personal Utility”.)
Yess, what you make is a good point that ToAU is not what we should be maximizing. I agree. I was arguing that it is nonsensical to not value utility, as by definition, MPU is what we should be maximizing. (Ok, put aside for now, as before, that me and you may have slightly different goal systems and I so I should be using a different pronoun, either you, if I am talking about what you are maximising, or me, if we are talking about me.)
Now, MPU is quite the complex function, and for us, at least, it includes terms for art and science existing, for humans not being killed, for minimizing not only our (mine, your) personal suffering, but also for minimising global suffering. Altruism is a major part of MPU, make no mistake, I am not arguing that others’ opinions do not matter, at least for some value of “others”, definitely including all humans, and likely including many non humans. MPU does include a term for the enjoyment, happiness, identity, non-suffering, and so forth of those in this category, but (as you have shown) this category cannot be completely universal.
In fact, in the end, all this boils down to is that you were arguing against utilitarianism, while I was arguing for consequentialism, two very similar ethical systems, but profoundly different.
Sorry, I tend to carelessly use the word “utility” to mean “the stuff utilitarians want to maximize,” forgetting that many people will read it as “Von Neuman-Morgenstern Utility.” You actually aren’t the first person on Less Wrong I’ve done this to.
I agree entirely.