I very much agree about the worry, My original comment was to make the easiest case quickly, but I think more extensive cases apply to. For example, I’m sure there have been substantial problems even in the other notable orgs, and in expectation we should expect there to continue to be so. (I’m not saying this based on particular evidence about these orgs, more that the base rate for similar projects seems bad, and these orgs don’t strike me as absolutely above these issues.)
One solution (of a few) that I’m in favor of is to just have more public knowledge about the capabilities and problems of orgs.
I think it’s pretty easy for orgs of about any quality level to seem exciting to new people and recruit them or take advantage of them. Right now, some orgs have poor reputations among those “in the know” (generally for producing poor quality output), but this isn’t made apparent publicly.[1] One solution is to have specialized systems that actually present negative information publicly; this could be public rating or evaluation systems.
This post by Nuno was partially meant as a test for this:
Another thing to do, of course, would be to just do some amounts of evaluation and auditing of all these efforts, above and beyond what even those currently “in the know” have. I think that in the case of Leverage, there really should have been some deep investigation a few years ago, perhaps after a separate setup to flag possible targets of investigation. Back then things were much more disorganized and more poorly funded, but now we’re in a much better position for similar efforts going forward.
[1] I don’t particularly blame them, consider the alternative.
[1] I don’t particularly blame them, consider the alternative.
I think the alternative is actually much better than silence!
For example I think the EA Hotel is great and that many “in the know” think it is not so great. I think that the little those in the know have surfaced about their beliefs has been very valuable information to the EA Hotel and to the community. I wish that more would be surfaced.
Simply put, if you are actually trying to make a good org, being silently blackballed by those “in the know” is actually not so fun. Of course there are other considerations, such as backlash, but IDK I think transparency is good on all sorts of angles. The opinions of those “in the know” matter; they lead, and I think its better for everyone if that leadership happens in the light.
Another thing to do, of course, would be to just do some amounts of evaluation and auditing of all these efforts, above and beyond what even those currently “in the know” have.
I think this is more than warranted at this point, yeah. I wonder who might be trusted enough to lead something like that.
I agree that it would have been really nice for grantmakers to communicate with the EA Hotel more, and other orgs more, about their issues. This is often a really challenging conversation to have (“we think your org isn’t that great, for these reasons”), and we currently have very few grantmaker hours for the scope of the work, so I think grantmakers don’t have much time now to spend on this. However, there does seem to be a real gap here to me. I represent a small org and have been around other small orgs, and the lack of communication with small grantmakers is a big issue. (And I probably have it much easier than most groups, knowing many of the individuals responsible)
I think the fact that we have so few grantmakers right now is a big bottleneck that I’m sure basically everyone would love to see improved. (The situation isn’t great for current grantmakers, who often have to work long hours). But “figuring out how to scale grantmaking” is a bit of a separate discussion.
Around making the information public specifically, that’s a whole different matter. Imagine the value proposition, “If you apply to this grant, and get turned down, we’ll write about why we don’t like it publically for everyone to see.” Fewer people would apply and many would complain a whole lot when it happens. The LTFF already gets flack for writing somewhat-candid information on the groups they do fund.
(Note: I was a guest manager on the LTFF for a few months, earlier this year)
Fewer people would apply and many would complain a whole lot when it happens. The LTFF already gets flack for writing somewhat-candid information on the groups they do fund.
I think that it would be very interesting to have a fund that has that policy. Yes, that might reduce in fewer people applying but people applying might itself be a signal that their project is worth funding.
I imagine grantmakers would be skeptical about people who would say “yes” to an optional form. Like, they say they’re okay with the information being public, but when it actually goes out, some of them will complain about it, leading to a lot of extra time.
However, some of our community seems unusually reasonable, so perhaps there’s some way to make it viable.
I very much agree about the worry, My original comment was to make the easiest case quickly, but I think more extensive cases apply to. For example, I’m sure there have been substantial problems even in the other notable orgs, and in expectation we should expect there to continue to be so. (I’m not saying this based on particular evidence about these orgs, more that the base rate for similar projects seems bad, and these orgs don’t strike me as absolutely above these issues.)
One solution (of a few) that I’m in favor of is to just have more public knowledge about the capabilities and problems of orgs.
I think it’s pretty easy for orgs of about any quality level to seem exciting to new people and recruit them or take advantage of them. Right now, some orgs have poor reputations among those “in the know” (generally for producing poor quality output), but this isn’t made apparent publicly.[1] One solution is to have specialized systems that actually present negative information publicly; this could be public rating or evaluation systems.
This post by Nuno was partially meant as a test for this:
https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/xmmqDdGqNZq5RELer/shallow-evaluations-of-longtermist-organizations
Another thing to do, of course, would be to just do some amounts of evaluation and auditing of all these efforts, above and beyond what even those currently “in the know” have. I think that in the case of Leverage, there really should have been some deep investigation a few years ago, perhaps after a separate setup to flag possible targets of investigation. Back then things were much more disorganized and more poorly funded, but now we’re in a much better position for similar efforts going forward.
[1] I don’t particularly blame them, consider the alternative.
I think the alternative is actually much better than silence!
For example I think the EA Hotel is great and that many “in the know” think it is not so great. I think that the little those in the know have surfaced about their beliefs has been very valuable information to the EA Hotel and to the community. I wish that more would be surfaced.
Simply put, if you are actually trying to make a good org, being silently blackballed by those “in the know” is actually not so fun. Of course there are other considerations, such as backlash, but IDK I think transparency is good on all sorts of angles. The opinions of those “in the know” matter; they lead, and I think its better for everyone if that leadership happens in the light.
I think this is more than warranted at this point, yeah. I wonder who might be trusted enough to lead something like that.
I agree that it would have been really nice for grantmakers to communicate with the EA Hotel more, and other orgs more, about their issues. This is often a really challenging conversation to have (“we think your org isn’t that great, for these reasons”), and we currently have very few grantmaker hours for the scope of the work, so I think grantmakers don’t have much time now to spend on this. However, there does seem to be a real gap here to me. I represent a small org and have been around other small orgs, and the lack of communication with small grantmakers is a big issue. (And I probably have it much easier than most groups, knowing many of the individuals responsible)
I think the fact that we have so few grantmakers right now is a big bottleneck that I’m sure basically everyone would love to see improved. (The situation isn’t great for current grantmakers, who often have to work long hours). But “figuring out how to scale grantmaking” is a bit of a separate discussion.
Around making the information public specifically, that’s a whole different matter. Imagine the value proposition, “If you apply to this grant, and get turned down, we’ll write about why we don’t like it publically for everyone to see.” Fewer people would apply and many would complain a whole lot when it happens. The LTFF already gets flack for writing somewhat-candid information on the groups they do fund.
(Note: I was a guest manager on the LTFF for a few months, earlier this year)
I think that it would be very interesting to have a fund that has that policy. Yes, that might reduce in fewer people applying but people applying might itself be a signal that their project is worth funding.
I feel confident that Greg of EA Hotel would very much prefer this in the case of EA Hotel. It can be optional, maybe.
That’s good to know.
I imagine grantmakers would be skeptical about people who would say “yes” to an optional form. Like, they say they’re okay with the information being public, but when it actually goes out, some of them will complain about it, leading to a lot of extra time.
However, some of our community seems unusually reasonable, so perhaps there’s some way to make it viable.