There’s a difference between dynasties and titles. Houses are dynasties- lots and lots of people were Habsburgs, even though only one person held a title at any particular time. For example, Philip I was, in 1505, King of Castile, Duke of Burgundy, Duke of Brabant, Duke of Limburg, Duke of Lothier, Duke of Luxemburg, Margrave of Namur, Count Palatine of Burgundy, Count of Artois, Count of Charolais, Count of Flanders, Count of Hainault, Count of Holland, and Count of Zeeland, but only a member of one House- the Habsburgs.
It doesn’t seem likely that wizards actually have hereditary titles that are linked to locations, since their power comes from magic, not farmland. Lord Malfoy is probably only a Lord because he’s on the Wizengamot- Draco doesn’t seem to have a courtesy title, as would befit the son of an important position in Muggle Britain.
Lord Malfoy is probably only a Lord because he’s on the Wizengamot
In MoR, Malfoy is a Noble and Most Ancient House, which presumably comes with a title. In canon, Lucius is neither a Lord, nor on the Wizengamot.
Also, in MoR we have
Though she was not addressed as Lady, Madam Longbottom would exercise the full rights of the Longbottom family for so long as their last scion had yet to attain his majority, and she was considered a prominent figure in a minority faction of the Wizengamot.
In MoR, Malfoy is a Noble and Most Ancient House, which presumably comes with a title. In canon, Lucius is neither a Lord, nor on the Wizengamot.
My presumption is that title comes from being on the Wizengamot, not that he’s on the Wizengamot because he has a title. That’s mostly because I don’t quite see what they would use the titles for, except as a medieval version of “Senator.”
Except we have an example in MoR of a prominent member of the Wizengamot not having a title, and one- Lord Greengrass- of someone having a title without being on the Wizengamot.
Chapter 78 suggests that Lady Greengrass has a vote on the Wizengamot, and referring to consorts as Lord or Lady is standard. Not referring to Mrs. Longbottom as Lady seems odd, but I don’t know how significant it is. (If EY has done extensive worldbuilding about the politics and courtesies of Wizarding Britain, it is opaque and appears to be a significant departure from canon.)
Yes, since he married a Lady of a Noble House it would make sense for him to become a Lord. It doesn’t make sense for him to become a Senator because he married a Senator, though.
It seems to me that the face value of
On the right of Mrs. Davis, one would find the comely Lady and yet handsomer Lord of the Noble and Most Ancient House of Greengrass
is that the titles come from the family.
Edit: Not to mention Amelia Bones is on the Wizengamot, and she’s not Lady Bones.
If EY has done extensive worldbuilding about the politics and courtesies of Wizarding Britain, it is opaque and appears to be a significant departure from canon.
Yes. We know this to be the case because people are being addressed by “Lord” and “Lady”, which no one ever was in canon. (Except Voldemort.)
Mr. Greengrass wasn’t born to a House- and even if he were married to her matrilineally, I believe he’d remain houseless (under European rules).
My guess is that the system is not internally consistent, or at least not internally consistent enough to use formal logic instead of fuzzy logic. Bones is the head of a department of the Ministry, and may have been seated with Fudge and Umbridge instead of with the voting members.
Mr. Greengrass wasn’t born to a House- and even if he were married to her matrilineally, I believe he’d remain houseless (under European rules).
So, wait, is this the case or is it true that “referring to consorts as Lord or Lady is standard.”? Or both, somehow? I’m confused.
Bones is the head of a department of the Ministry, and may have been seated with Fudge and Umbridge instead of with the voting members.
I looked back through, and it seems you’re right that her location wasn’t mentioned. I guess the fact that she was on the Wizengamot in canon isn’t much evidence in this case.
So, wait, is this the case or is it true that “referring to consorts as Lord or Lady is standard.”? I’m confused.
Again, titles and dynasties (houses) are different things.
If the appellation accompanies the dynasty, then I’m pretty sure Lady Greengrass’s husband would neither use her name or have a Lord title. For example, Prince Philip is a member of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, not the House of Windsor, the house of his wife, Queen Elizabeth. A patrilineal marriage is one in which the children are of the husband’s house, and a matrilineal marriage is one in which the children are of the wife’s house. (The practice of forming a new line with each new pairing, like with ‘Potter-Evans-Verres’, is incredibly short-sighted and is very uncommon. I know of no society where that was the norm for an extended period of time.)
If appellations follow the title, like in the UK, you get things like John Morrison, lowborn but raised to the peerage. His appellation is now Lord because of the barony he holds, and his wife’s appellation is now Lady because her husband holds a barony. Similarly, Lady Greengrass would be married to Lord Greengrass under this system. (The Morrison dynasty would be everyone who can trace their lineage back to him and has the surname of Morrison- which comes with no legal benefits.)
I guess the fact that she was on the Wizengamot in canon isn’t much evidence in this case.
This is modern UK politics, so I’m not clear on it, but I think ministers get votes in parliament? But that adds another wrinkle- I guess it would be a temporary vote, where Malfoy may have a life vote, and so he gets a title and she doesn’t.
Edit again: I should mention that kinship, and the etiquette surrounding it, can get really thorny. So far I’ve been assuming patrilineal dynasties, which fits with canon Harry Potter and most of European history, but might not fit with MoR (as Greengrass and her husband are clearly a matrilineal couple). Sophia Dorothea was born into the House of Welf but became a member of the House of Hanover after marrying George I. So if both patrilineal and matrilineal marriage are common, then it could be that the Lord and Lady follow dynasties rather than titles.
It’s worth noting for the patrilineal / matrilineal thing that MoR!Wizarding Britain claims to have gender equality for quite a while (in matters other than heroism).
And the Wizengamot vastly predates the Ministry; it may be the case in canon, but I would be very surprised if the WizengaMoR gave department heads a voice in the body. Unless they had the right lineage, anyway.
There’s a difference between dynasties and titles. Houses are dynasties- lots and lots of people were Habsburgs, even though only one person held a title at any particular time. For example, Philip I was, in 1505, King of Castile, Duke of Burgundy, Duke of Brabant, Duke of Limburg, Duke of Lothier, Duke of Luxemburg, Margrave of Namur, Count Palatine of Burgundy, Count of Artois, Count of Charolais, Count of Flanders, Count of Hainault, Count of Holland, and Count of Zeeland, but only a member of one House- the Habsburgs.
Also, take a look at cadet branches.
It doesn’t seem likely that wizards actually have hereditary titles that are linked to locations, since their power comes from magic, not farmland. Lord Malfoy is probably only a Lord because he’s on the Wizengamot- Draco doesn’t seem to have a courtesy title, as would befit the son of an important position in Muggle Britain.
In MoR, Malfoy is a Noble and Most Ancient House, which presumably comes with a title. In canon, Lucius is neither a Lord, nor on the Wizengamot.
Also, in MoR we have
My presumption is that title comes from being on the Wizengamot, not that he’s on the Wizengamot because he has a title. That’s mostly because I don’t quite see what they would use the titles for, except as a medieval version of “Senator.”
Except we have an example in MoR of a prominent member of the Wizengamot not having a title, and one- Lord Greengrass- of someone having a title without being on the Wizengamot.
Chapter 78 suggests that Lady Greengrass has a vote on the Wizengamot, and referring to consorts as Lord or Lady is standard. Not referring to Mrs. Longbottom as Lady seems odd, but I don’t know how significant it is. (If EY has done extensive worldbuilding about the politics and courtesies of Wizarding Britain, it is opaque and appears to be a significant departure from canon.)
Yes, since he married a Lady of a Noble House it would make sense for him to become a Lord. It doesn’t make sense for him to become a Senator because he married a Senator, though.
It seems to me that the face value of
is that the titles come from the family.
Edit: Not to mention Amelia Bones is on the Wizengamot, and she’s not Lady Bones.
Yes. We know this to be the case because people are being addressed by “Lord” and “Lady”, which no one ever was in canon. (Except Voldemort.)
Mr. Greengrass wasn’t born to a House- and even if he were married to her matrilineally, I believe he’d remain houseless (under European rules).
My guess is that the system is not internally consistent, or at least not internally consistent enough to use formal logic instead of fuzzy logic. Bones is the head of a department of the Ministry, and may have been seated with Fudge and Umbridge instead of with the voting members.
So, wait, is this the case or is it true that “referring to consorts as Lord or Lady is standard.”? Or both, somehow? I’m confused.
I looked back through, and it seems you’re right that her location wasn’t mentioned. I guess the fact that she was on the Wizengamot in canon isn’t much evidence in this case.
Again, titles and dynasties (houses) are different things.
If the appellation accompanies the dynasty, then I’m pretty sure Lady Greengrass’s husband would neither use her name or have a Lord title. For example, Prince Philip is a member of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, not the House of Windsor, the house of his wife, Queen Elizabeth. A patrilineal marriage is one in which the children are of the husband’s house, and a matrilineal marriage is one in which the children are of the wife’s house. (The practice of forming a new line with each new pairing, like with ‘Potter-Evans-Verres’, is incredibly short-sighted and is very uncommon. I know of no society where that was the norm for an extended period of time.)
If appellations follow the title, like in the UK, you get things like John Morrison, lowborn but raised to the peerage. His appellation is now Lord because of the barony he holds, and his wife’s appellation is now Lady because her husband holds a barony. Similarly, Lady Greengrass would be married to Lord Greengrass under this system. (The Morrison dynasty would be everyone who can trace their lineage back to him and has the surname of Morrison- which comes with no legal benefits.)
This is modern UK politics, so I’m not clear on it, but I think ministers get votes in parliament? But that adds another wrinkle- I guess it would be a temporary vote, where Malfoy may have a life vote, and so he gets a title and she doesn’t.
Edit again: I should mention that kinship, and the etiquette surrounding it, can get really thorny. So far I’ve been assuming patrilineal dynasties, which fits with canon Harry Potter and most of European history, but might not fit with MoR (as Greengrass and her husband are clearly a matrilineal couple). Sophia Dorothea was born into the House of Welf but became a member of the House of Hanover after marrying George I. So if both patrilineal and matrilineal marriage are common, then it could be that the Lord and Lady follow dynasties rather than titles.
It’s worth noting for the patrilineal / matrilineal thing that MoR!Wizarding Britain claims to have gender equality for quite a while (in matters other than heroism).
And the Wizengamot vastly predates the Ministry; it may be the case in canon, but I would be very surprised if the WizengaMoR gave department heads a voice in the body. Unless they had the right lineage, anyway.