Quirrell makes ‘riddle’ puns and told the story of his mother’s crime as an offhand remark. The rest is all under Conservation of Detail, which the author suggested we pay attention to.
That is, there is only room for one, true antagonist, everyone else is just an obstacle. Voldemort, more than anyone else (except maybe Dumbledore if you follow that fascinating fringe theory), is set up to be the antagonist. Behind all the things that Quirrell does for HJPEV or anyone else, he is evil. He really is.
Donc, he’s almost certainly Voldemort.
I think it is also fairly accepted that Dumbledore helped Lily Potter pretty-up her sister through the potion textbook he gave to HJPEV with the “terrible secret.” I think that’s winning out over the “Dumbledore used Lily to break Snape” theory that I was favoring a while back.
We think Lucius thinks HJPEV is Vodlemort because it makes a lot more sense out of what Lucius says to HJPEV in chapter 38. And later chapters, too. That’s a “It just fits together” answer that I’m sure some don’t like. But there it is.
I don’t know of good proof for Harry’s status. I thought it was disputed. There’s the whole ‘dark side’ thing, but then he kind of has a lot of sides.
I could get quote for all of these later, like Monday or maybe sooner. But not right now. Maybe someone else will in the meantime, maybe not.
“A riddle, Lord Malfoy!” the Boy-Who-Lived shouted across the Most Ancient Hall. “I know you weren’t in Ravenclaw, but try to answer this one anyway! What destroys Dark Lords, frightens Dementors, and owes you sixty thousand Galleons?”
For an instant Lord Malfoy stood there with eyes slightly widened; then his face fell back into calm scorn, and his voice spoke coolly in reply. “Are you openly threatening me, Mr. Potter?”
Malfoy’s “instant” of surprise doesn’t make sense unless it’s in response to what Potter said. Malfoy wouldn’t have been surprised for only an instant by anything else that Harry said, because he had already seen Harry spook the dementor. This supports the theory that Malfoy thinks Harry is Voldemort, to the extent that the Quirrell = Voldemort theory is true. It also supports the Quirrel = Voldemort theory to the extent that the Malfoy thinks Harry is Voldemort theory is true. It ties those theories together, a little bit.
The weakness of this argument is that it requires a previously unmentioned detail, that Malfoy knows Voldemort uses riddle puns. But that’s a small weakness and the argument still seems more true than false.
I don’t know why you think I didn’t know this. But there is a difference between knowing Tom Riddle is Voldemort and knowing that Voldemort’s secret identities often use Riddle puns. This difference is poignantly illustrated by the fact that HPMOR Harry knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort but never catches on to the Riddle puns. If you’re going to correct me, please make sure that I’m actually wrong in the first place.
Additionally, I explicitly said that this objection was only weak and that the theory was still fairly strong. I don’t know why you would make this comment unless you’re fishing for karma or you love to argue about trivial and stupid things.
This difference is poignantly illustrated by the fact that HPMOR Harry knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort but never catches on to the Riddle puns.
Harry in HPMoR hasn’t been told Voldemort was once named Tom Riddle.
If you’re going to correct me, please make sure that I’m actually wrong in the first place.
I’ve just made sure, by searching for all occurrences of the word “riddle” in the Methods of Rationality PDF—and seeing that Dumbledore never once mentions the name Tom Riddle in front of Harry. Is this enough “making sure”?
I don’t know why you would make this comment unless you’re fishing for karma or you love to argue about trivial and stupid things.
Your imprecisions lead to flawed conclusions. I’ve only been making corrections when the mistakes significantly affect such conclusions.
This is a good catch by the way, and itself another oddity.
Canon Dumbledore told Harry a lot about Voldemort’s background (including the Riddle years and his theories about the horcruxes) - HPMOR Dumbledore has done none of this. And yet he expects Harry to fight him, and Harry already knows about the prophecy.
Another issue is that I’m recently doubting whether Quirrell/Voldemort is actually Tom Riddle in the HPMOR universe. It is clearly implied that Quirrell = Voldemort, but then suddenly in chapters 84 and 85 we get this Quirrell = Hero identification (from a Noble and Ancient House, no less). Further, Eliezer has made it clear that Hero is not Tom Riddle (by adjusting the birth year).
So what are the possibilities? It seems that either Tom Riddle killed the original Hero character, and then impersonated him in the fight against his alter ego Voldemort. Or, even more intriguingly, the Hero character fought and defeated Tom Riddle much earlier on, then set up the Voldemort character to be the awful Dark Lord with a “secret” identity of Tom Riddle, while himself being the “secret within a secret” identity, and the heroic adversary. This is a plot worthy of a truly evil Sith Lord such as Emperor Palpatine. Presumably the Death Eaters as well as Dumbledore and aurors are all deceived, and this is the real reason why booby-trapping the grave of Tom Riddle’s father (after TSPE) is going to be of no use. Quirrelmort has no need to hide the father’s grave, because it’s totally irrelevant.
You’ve completely conceded that your initial argument was total crap. Now you’re making a completely different argument. But you were initially just being a total asshole, and your initial argument was wrong. If you would have actually conceded that instead of completely changing what your criticism was, I might think of you as a more genuine person rather than as a disingenuous reputation hound.
I’ve made factual mistakes but they in no way justify your behavior or the behavior of others.
My imprecision led to no flawed conclusions. And you just stole that argument from pedanterrific, you didn’t even think of it yourself, that’s pathetic for a defense of your actions or above comment. And I didn’t make the imprecision until after your comment: “It only requires that Malfoy knows Voldemort to be Tom Riddle—which in canon he did.” So you’re obviously lying when you say “I’ve only been making corrections when the mistakes significantly affect such conclusions.” But the commenters here are stupid and apparently don’t notice things like that.
But the idiots who gave you 2 karma (solely for the purpose of opposing my post, because I am now “low status” in your eyes) obviously don’t care about consistent advocacies or anything like that, so you only have social incentives to cheat and lie and commit underhanded fallacies, instead of actually either defending your point or admitting that you were wrong. Your (2 levels) above comment was useless, so I conclude that the commenters on this site either don’t know how to evaluate comments rationally or else they want to use karma for other purposes.
My impression of this site has gone way down. I mistakenly assumed rationalists would be rational.
That was stupid of me.
Goodbye. I’ll still visit because the authors of the posts are intelligent, but I never want to deal with moron commenters who don’t want to have productive discussions or, more importantly, the fact that so many people out there just don’t recognize the tactics that you’re using. I’m sure that this type of belief and argument has a “low status” association in the eyes of many of the other commenters, and based on their past behavior I predict that more negative reputation and bad counterarguments are on the way. But it can’t be helped, and I’m not going to waste my time responding to them.
You’ve completely conceded that your initial argument was total crap.
No, I haven’t.
Now you’re making a completely different argument.
Since you then made a completely separate and different error, of course I’ll make a completely different argument against that completely separate and different error.
and your initial argument was wrong
I’ve not made a wrong argument against any of your positions.
My imprecision led to no flawed conclusions. And you just stole that argument from pedanterrific, you didn’t even think of it yourself, that’s pathetic for a defense of your actions or above comment. And I didn’t make the imprecision until after your comment: “It only requires that Malfoy knows Voldemort to be Tom Riddle—which in canon he did.” So you’re obviously lying when you say “I’ve only been making corrections when the mistakes significantly affect such conclusions.”
Again with the accusations of lying?
Look, your initial claim: “The weakness of this argument is that it requires a previously unmentioned detail, that Malfoy knows Voldemort uses riddle puns.” led to a unnecessary requirement—that Malfoy knows something of Voldemort’s liking about riddle puns. That Malfoy knows something about Voldemort’s sense of humour.
That’s a false conclusion. If he just knows Voldemort’s name to have been Tom Riddle, he can find importance at the word “riddle” being told to him by Harry Potter, without needing to have any prior knowledge of Voldemort’s liking for puns.
Look here: you obviously have a HUGE problem about being corrected. That’s not gonna work in a site dedicated to becoming LESS WRONG.
The proper response to being corrected is “Thanks, I missed that” or “Thanks, you’re right about that” or “Oops, sorry”.
Not treating people as enemies for making you be less wrong.
And certainly not accusing them for lying. I know for a fact that I’ve never lied to you, in any of my comments towards you. That’s just an absolute knowledge I have regarding my own actions, even though I can’t convince you of it.
And you just stole that argument from pedanterrific
That’s a crime in your mind? I knew the same thing without the need for him/her to say it, but obviously I’m not going to convince you. But even if I did “steal” that argument from pedanterrific, and wasn’t aware of it independently, so what? That’s what arguments are for, to convince people independently of origin.
the fact that so many people out there just don’t recognize the tactics that you’re using.
The only tactics I’ve been using is telling you whenever you make a mistake in either facts or reasoning. And being straightforward to you, not sugarcoating your mistakes.
The tactic you’ve been using is accusing me of lying, whenever I disagree with you about anything, and accusing other people of being morons whenever they disagree with you.
You hate me—we get it. But the only “sin” I’ve committed against you is correcting you without paying too much attention at how politely I did it. I’ve never lied—I didn’t even downvote any of your posts except the ones where you accuse me of lying.
Dumbledore talks about Tom = Voldemort all the time in front of him… I think.
But it doesn’t impact my point either way.
But I understand why pointing out the error still makes sense despite the previous sentence.
And now I’ve wasted an hour arguing on the internet which is one of the most useless things that I know of and which is what I was trying to avoid in the first place hangs head in shame.
In addition to what the others have said there are numerous other passages and oddities that hint at Quirrel = Voldemort = Harry’s dark side. Harry and Quirrel describing a Horcrux between them when they talk about the Pioneer plate. Quirrel saying he “resolved his parental issues to his satisfaction” long ago, just after saying being grateful for his parents could never have occured to him. Quirrel having a much better model of Harry than of Draco or Hermione, particularly when Harry’s dark side is involved. Harry’s dark side and Quirrel both being extremely vulnerable to Dementors. Harry’s dark side and Quirrel both being very good at pretending to be other people. Quirrel’s extremely odd reaction when Harry talks about having a mysterious dark side and his going along with the convenient conclusion that it’s just another part of Harry. Dumbledore and Snape recognizing Voldemort’s hand in Quirrels actions. Harry’s dark side hating Dumbledore. And so on.
The strongest piece of evidence for Lucius believing Harry to be Voldemort is his “I know it was you” message after breaking out Bellatrix.
Quirrel saying he “resolved his parental issues to his satisfaction” long ago, just after saying being grateful for his parents could never have occured to him.
And of course, from Chapter 34:
My own family is long since dead at the Dark Lord’s hand.
I can haz evidences, plz?
But thanks for even just the claims.
Quirrell makes ‘riddle’ puns and told the story of his mother’s crime as an offhand remark. The rest is all under Conservation of Detail, which the author suggested we pay attention to.
That is, there is only room for one, true antagonist, everyone else is just an obstacle. Voldemort, more than anyone else (except maybe Dumbledore if you follow that fascinating fringe theory), is set up to be the antagonist. Behind all the things that Quirrell does for HJPEV or anyone else, he is evil. He really is.
Donc, he’s almost certainly Voldemort.
I think it is also fairly accepted that Dumbledore helped Lily Potter pretty-up her sister through the potion textbook he gave to HJPEV with the “terrible secret.” I think that’s winning out over the “Dumbledore used Lily to break Snape” theory that I was favoring a while back.
We think Lucius thinks HJPEV is Vodlemort because it makes a lot more sense out of what Lucius says to HJPEV in chapter 38. And later chapters, too. That’s a “It just fits together” answer that I’m sure some don’t like. But there it is.
I don’t know of good proof for Harry’s status. I thought it was disputed. There’s the whole ‘dark side’ thing, but then he kind of has a lot of sides.
I could get quote for all of these later, like Monday or maybe sooner. But not right now. Maybe someone else will in the meantime, maybe not.
On Riddle Puns:
Malfoy’s “instant” of surprise doesn’t make sense unless it’s in response to what Potter said. Malfoy wouldn’t have been surprised for only an instant by anything else that Harry said, because he had already seen Harry spook the dementor. This supports the theory that Malfoy thinks Harry is Voldemort, to the extent that the Quirrell = Voldemort theory is true. It also supports the Quirrel = Voldemort theory to the extent that the Malfoy thinks Harry is Voldemort theory is true. It ties those theories together, a little bit.
The weakness of this argument is that it requires a previously unmentioned detail, that Malfoy knows Voldemort uses riddle puns. But that’s a small weakness and the argument still seems more true than false.
It only requires that Malfoy knows Voldemort to be Tom Riddle—which in canon he did.
I don’t know why you think I didn’t know this. But there is a difference between knowing Tom Riddle is Voldemort and knowing that Voldemort’s secret identities often use Riddle puns. This difference is poignantly illustrated by the fact that HPMOR Harry knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort but never catches on to the Riddle puns. If you’re going to correct me, please make sure that I’m actually wrong in the first place.
Additionally, I explicitly said that this objection was only weak and that the theory was still fairly strong. I don’t know why you would make this comment unless you’re fishing for karma or you love to argue about trivial and stupid things.
Harry in HPMoR hasn’t been told Voldemort was once named Tom Riddle.
I’ve just made sure, by searching for all occurrences of the word “riddle” in the Methods of Rationality PDF—and seeing that Dumbledore never once mentions the name Tom Riddle in front of Harry. Is this enough “making sure”?
Your imprecisions lead to flawed conclusions. I’ve only been making corrections when the mistakes significantly affect such conclusions.
This is a good catch by the way, and itself another oddity.
Canon Dumbledore told Harry a lot about Voldemort’s background (including the Riddle years and his theories about the horcruxes) - HPMOR Dumbledore has done none of this. And yet he expects Harry to fight him, and Harry already knows about the prophecy.
Another issue is that I’m recently doubting whether Quirrell/Voldemort is actually Tom Riddle in the HPMOR universe. It is clearly implied that Quirrell = Voldemort, but then suddenly in chapters 84 and 85 we get this Quirrell = Hero identification (from a Noble and Ancient House, no less). Further, Eliezer has made it clear that Hero is not Tom Riddle (by adjusting the birth year).
So what are the possibilities? It seems that either Tom Riddle killed the original Hero character, and then impersonated him in the fight against his alter ego Voldemort. Or, even more intriguingly, the Hero character fought and defeated Tom Riddle much earlier on, then set up the Voldemort character to be the awful Dark Lord with a “secret” identity of Tom Riddle, while himself being the “secret within a secret” identity, and the heroic adversary. This is a plot worthy of a truly evil Sith Lord such as Emperor Palpatine. Presumably the Death Eaters as well as Dumbledore and aurors are all deceived, and this is the real reason why booby-trapping the grave of Tom Riddle’s father (after TSPE) is going to be of no use. Quirrelmort has no need to hide the father’s grave, because it’s totally irrelevant.
You’ve completely conceded that your initial argument was total crap. Now you’re making a completely different argument. But you were initially just being a total asshole, and your initial argument was wrong. If you would have actually conceded that instead of completely changing what your criticism was, I might think of you as a more genuine person rather than as a disingenuous reputation hound.
I’ve made factual mistakes but they in no way justify your behavior or the behavior of others.
My imprecision led to no flawed conclusions. And you just stole that argument from pedanterrific, you didn’t even think of it yourself, that’s pathetic for a defense of your actions or above comment. And I didn’t make the imprecision until after your comment: “It only requires that Malfoy knows Voldemort to be Tom Riddle—which in canon he did.” So you’re obviously lying when you say “I’ve only been making corrections when the mistakes significantly affect such conclusions.” But the commenters here are stupid and apparently don’t notice things like that.
But the idiots who gave you 2 karma (solely for the purpose of opposing my post, because I am now “low status” in your eyes) obviously don’t care about consistent advocacies or anything like that, so you only have social incentives to cheat and lie and commit underhanded fallacies, instead of actually either defending your point or admitting that you were wrong. Your (2 levels) above comment was useless, so I conclude that the commenters on this site either don’t know how to evaluate comments rationally or else they want to use karma for other purposes.
My impression of this site has gone way down. I mistakenly assumed rationalists would be rational.
That was stupid of me.
Goodbye. I’ll still visit because the authors of the posts are intelligent, but I never want to deal with moron commenters who don’t want to have productive discussions or, more importantly, the fact that so many people out there just don’t recognize the tactics that you’re using. I’m sure that this type of belief and argument has a “low status” association in the eyes of many of the other commenters, and based on their past behavior I predict that more negative reputation and bad counterarguments are on the way. But it can’t be helped, and I’m not going to waste my time responding to them.
No, I haven’t.
Since you then made a completely separate and different error, of course I’ll make a completely different argument against that completely separate and different error.
I’ve not made a wrong argument against any of your positions.
Again with the accusations of lying?
Look, your initial claim: “The weakness of this argument is that it requires a previously unmentioned detail, that Malfoy knows Voldemort uses riddle puns.” led to a unnecessary requirement—that Malfoy knows something of Voldemort’s liking about riddle puns. That Malfoy knows something about Voldemort’s sense of humour.
That’s a false conclusion. If he just knows Voldemort’s name to have been Tom Riddle, he can find importance at the word “riddle” being told to him by Harry Potter, without needing to have any prior knowledge of Voldemort’s liking for puns.
Look here: you obviously have a HUGE problem about being corrected. That’s not gonna work in a site dedicated to becoming LESS WRONG.
The proper response to being corrected is “Thanks, I missed that” or “Thanks, you’re right about that” or “Oops, sorry”.
Not treating people as enemies for making you be less wrong.
And certainly not accusing them for lying. I know for a fact that I’ve never lied to you, in any of my comments towards you. That’s just an absolute knowledge I have regarding my own actions, even though I can’t convince you of it.
That’s a crime in your mind? I knew the same thing without the need for him/her to say it, but obviously I’m not going to convince you. But even if I did “steal” that argument from pedanterrific, and wasn’t aware of it independently, so what? That’s what arguments are for, to convince people independently of origin.
The only tactics I’ve been using is telling you whenever you make a mistake in either facts or reasoning. And being straightforward to you, not sugarcoating your mistakes.
The tactic you’ve been using is accusing me of lying, whenever I disagree with you about anything, and accusing other people of being morons whenever they disagree with you.
You hate me—we get it. But the only “sin” I’ve committed against you is correcting you without paying too much attention at how politely I did it. I’ve never lied—I didn’t even downvote any of your posts except the ones where you accuse me of lying.
Out of curiosity, have I identified myself as male on this site?
That is, I do that sometimes, I just hadn’t thought I did here.
Not to my knowledge. Apologies—I just wrongly tend to use the male pronoun as default in some cases. Edited to fix.
What makes you think this? (He doesn’t.)
Dumbledore talks about Tom = Voldemort all the time in front of him… I think.
But it doesn’t impact my point either way. But I understand why pointing out the error still makes sense despite the previous sentence.
And now I’ve wasted an hour arguing on the internet which is one of the most useless things that I know of and which is what I was trying to avoid in the first place hangs head in shame.
Not even once, in fact.
In addition to what the others have said there are numerous other passages and oddities that hint at Quirrel = Voldemort = Harry’s dark side. Harry and Quirrel describing a Horcrux between them when they talk about the Pioneer plate. Quirrel saying he “resolved his parental issues to his satisfaction” long ago, just after saying being grateful for his parents could never have occured to him. Quirrel having a much better model of Harry than of Draco or Hermione, particularly when Harry’s dark side is involved. Harry’s dark side and Quirrel both being extremely vulnerable to Dementors. Harry’s dark side and Quirrel both being very good at pretending to be other people. Quirrel’s extremely odd reaction when Harry talks about having a mysterious dark side and his going along with the convenient conclusion that it’s just another part of Harry. Dumbledore and Snape recognizing Voldemort’s hand in Quirrels actions. Harry’s dark side hating Dumbledore. And so on.
The strongest piece of evidence for Lucius believing Harry to be Voldemort is his “I know it was you” message after breaking out Bellatrix.
And of course, from Chapter 34:
Evidence for the second one (Sirius Black).
The guy who caught that second quote is completely amazing.
Why thank you.