Why wasn’t one of the first things Harry did when returning from the trial exposing Hermione to the light of the True Patronus while she was still unconscious (it looks like it didn’t happen at least)? He already knows it restores recent Dementor damage, has a plausible reason to know in that he experienced it himself under Dumbledore’s eyes and could have told Dumbledore to secure his cooperation. Is his anger at Dumbledore getting in the way?
Since I don’t anticipate getting a chance to point it out inside the fic itself, and the hint is unreasonably subtle:
When Hermione woke the third time (though it felt like she’d only closed her eyes for a moment) the Sun was even lower in the sky, almost fully set. She felt a little more alive and, strangely, even more exhausted. This time it was Professor Flitwick who was standing next to her bed and shaking her shoulder, a tray of steaming food floating next to him. For some reason she’d thought Harry Potter ought to be leaning over her bedside, but he wasn’t there. Had she dreamed that? She couldn’t remember dreaming.
Harry didn’t think of it instantly, but given a little time...
Possibly a rubbish first post, but this highlight draws attention to something rather misleading: she was more exhausted? Reading that originally rang bells in my head at the same pitch as Hermione being memory-charmed. Then, I played with the idea that Harry taught her the True Patronus then obliviated her, for all of two seconds.
Mind circles.
Perhaps the thing she should be taught is Occlumency, for both her own sake and so that she can keep secrets. Though I’m not sure that would be possible at her age and with her disposition...
“Hah,” said the boy; his smile seemed realer now, warmer. “She’s
having trouble for exactly the same reason I did. There’s enough light in
her to destroy Dementors, I’m sure. She wouldn’t be able to stop herself
from destroying Dementors, even at the cost of her own life...”
EDIT: I think he also believed he could teach Malfoy.
Oh I know he thinks she has the potential and I’m in no doubt myself either.
My point is it doesn’t necessarily mean it can be transmitted; how come Godric never trained a whole cadre of True Patronus users? Perhaps everyone needs to figure it out themselves, like Harry (and presumably Godric) did.
I see no reason to believe that Godric could cast the True Patronus. Even if he knew enough to ruin his ability to cast the traditional one(and knowing that it was literally hiding from death would likely be enough to make him disdain it), that doesn’t mean that he could take the necessary leap to using the True Patronus.
Wizarding society likes to let people figure out the dangerous secrets for themselves. You don’t tell people the dangerous secrets until they have proven themselves on the easier ones, you don’t tell people the secret of potion invention because they might get turned into cats, etc.
Of course, Harry can violate that as he pleases if it is just a social convention, and Harry’s guesses at principles seem\ to hold up far better than it seems like it should.
How do we know that Godric could do it? I recall Harry musing on Godric and Rowena knowing that Dementors were Death (pg 742, pdf) - but would that automatically imply that they could also cast the True Patronus?
Harry can because he rejects Death as part of the natural order. Is there any evidence that they did? I don’t remember any evidence that anyone but Harry has ever done it.
Harry opened his mouth, and then, as realization hit him, rapidly snapped his mouth shut again. Godric hadn’t told anyone, nor had Rowena if she’d known; there might have been any number of wizards who’d figured it out and kept their mouths shut. You couldn’t forget if you knew that was what you were trying to do; once you realized how it worked, the animal form of the Patronus Charm would never work for you again—and most wizards didn’t have the right upbringing to turn on Dementors and destroy them -
I read this as meaning that Harry believes Godric could do it. Maybe I’m assuming too much, though, because I really like that idea.
I think he’s just describing what happens when you tell people Dementor’s are Death. He considered that a tactic in the WIzengamut to prevent them from being able to cast a patronus, and gives no thought to the possibility that knowing that would enable them to cast the True Patronus.
I wouldn’t be surprised if changing one’s mind requires the same kind of mental effort required to change habits. Spending willpower is not very pleasant.
I thought that was odd: that they would actually have to understand, and not just be told that Dementors are death. Like in the same way that under-confidence in your ability to perform a physical action actually undermines your ability to do it, which should be relatable if you’ve ever tried to back-flip on a trampoline or forced yourself to perform an action in spite of an anticipation of pain or great displeasure—but so long as you expect being able to do it, you can still do it. But if someone just said ‘Dementors are death’, you’d cast your animal patronus just fine so long as you didn’t grok it. Which made me suspicious of Harry’s possible tactic in the Wizengamot.
I think the problem is the lack of a Happy Thought to confront Death. Harry has one—his absolute rejection of Death as the natural order, and his belief that we shall overcome some day.
As long as you still believe that death is inevitable, that everyone will die—there is nothing happy about that to comfort you.
I believe that Harry internally discusses this point.
If you tell them the whole riddle (“what is most scary, unkillable etc”), then give the answer, I’d say there’s a good chance that it would cast enough doubt for the animal patronuses to fail, at least temporarily. Also, Harry could improve his credibility by casting his human patronus.
True, especially on the last point. It still feels like there’s a large philosophical knowledge-set to convey before their Patronus fails reliably for the right reason. I see what you mean though. Maybe the habit (mental) necessarily built into the Patronus charm would be harder to override more than temporarily due to the strength in habit, or at least without genuinely shifting how that person conceptualises all the relevant stuff.
Why wasn’t one of the first things Harry did when returning from the trial exposing Hermione to the light of the True Patronus while she was still unconscious (it looks like it didn’t happen at least)? He already knows it restores recent Dementor damage, has a plausible reason to know in that he experienced it himself under Dumbledore’s eyes and could have told Dumbledore to secure his cooperation. Is his anger at Dumbledore getting in the way?
Since I don’t anticipate getting a chance to point it out inside the fic itself, and the hint is unreasonably subtle:
Harry didn’t think of it instantly, but given a little time...
Possibly a rubbish first post, but this highlight draws attention to something rather misleading: she was more exhausted? Reading that originally rang bells in my head at the same pitch as Hermione being memory-charmed. Then, I played with the idea that Harry taught her the True Patronus then obliviated her, for all of two seconds. Mind circles.
Seeing this before the parent, I thought you meant kissing, which worked on Harry when he was demented, and references fairy tales.
Disclaimer: Terrible omake ahead.
Isn’t Hermione a little young for that? And how could she manage to obliviate Harry’s patronus afterwards?
Why on earth is this in the negative? We downvote bad jokes now?
As one of the downvoters, haven’t we always downvoted bad jokes?
This was a bad joke, not in the sense of inappropriateness (a similar but better joke at http://lesswrong.com/lw/ams/harry_potter_and_the_methods_of_rationality/61ew was heavily upvoted), but in the sense of being strained, weak, and largely unfunny.
Thank you, by the way.
Somehow I haven’t seen that happen in the ~3 months I’ve been here.
I’ll take your word for it, though.
I’ve been here since the beginning, and yes, good jokes get upvoted, bad jokes get downvoted. ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are of course highly subjective.
Things with negative karma get downvoted even more. You hadn’t noticed?
Edit: perhaps not. It actually took longer to go from −2 to −3 than 0 to −2. I think we need more data points.
And I hope the next thing he does is to teach her how to cast the True Patronus.
How confident are we that it’s even teachable?
Perhaps the thing she should be taught is Occlumency, for both her own sake and so that she can keep secrets. Though I’m not sure that would be possible at her age and with her disposition...
Harry’s sure.
EDIT: I think he also believed he could teach Malfoy.
Oh I know he thinks she has the potential and I’m in no doubt myself either.
My point is it doesn’t necessarily mean it can be transmitted; how come Godric never trained a whole cadre of True Patronus users? Perhaps everyone needs to figure it out themselves, like Harry (and presumably Godric) did.
I see no reason to believe that Godric could cast the True Patronus. Even if he knew enough to ruin his ability to cast the traditional one(and knowing that it was literally hiding from death would likely be enough to make him disdain it), that doesn’t mean that he could take the necessary leap to using the True Patronus.
Wizarding society likes to let people figure out the dangerous secrets for themselves. You don’t tell people the dangerous secrets until they have proven themselves on the easier ones, you don’t tell people the secret of potion invention because they might get turned into cats, etc.
Of course, Harry can violate that as he pleases if it is just a social convention, and Harry’s guesses at principles seem\ to hold up far better than it seems like it should.
How do we know that Godric could do it? I recall Harry musing on Godric and Rowena knowing that Dementors were Death (pg 742, pdf) - but would that automatically imply that they could also cast the True Patronus?
Harry can because he rejects Death as part of the natural order. Is there any evidence that they did? I don’t remember any evidence that anyone but Harry has ever done it.
I read this as meaning that Harry believes Godric could do it. Maybe I’m assuming too much, though, because I really like that idea.
I think he’s just describing what happens when you tell people Dementor’s are Death. He considered that a tactic in the WIzengamut to prevent them from being able to cast a patronus, and gives no thought to the possibility that knowing that would enable them to cast the True Patronus.
Yeah, makes sense. There goes that theory of mine...
(Hm. This “changing your mind” business is strangely unpleasant.)
I wouldn’t be surprised if changing one’s mind requires the same kind of mental effort required to change habits. Spending willpower is not very pleasant.
I thought that was odd: that they would actually have to understand, and not just be told that Dementors are death. Like in the same way that under-confidence in your ability to perform a physical action actually undermines your ability to do it, which should be relatable if you’ve ever tried to back-flip on a trampoline or forced yourself to perform an action in spite of an anticipation of pain or great displeasure—but so long as you expect being able to do it, you can still do it. But if someone just said ‘Dementors are death’, you’d cast your animal patronus just fine so long as you didn’t grok it. Which made me suspicious of Harry’s possible tactic in the Wizengamot.
I think the problem is the lack of a Happy Thought to confront Death. Harry has one—his absolute rejection of Death as the natural order, and his belief that we shall overcome some day.
As long as you still believe that death is inevitable, that everyone will die—there is nothing happy about that to comfort you.
I believe that Harry internally discusses this point.
If you tell them the whole riddle (“what is most scary, unkillable etc”), then give the answer, I’d say there’s a good chance that it would cast enough doubt for the animal patronuses to fail, at least temporarily. Also, Harry could improve his credibility by casting his human patronus.
True, especially on the last point. It still feels like there’s a large philosophical knowledge-set to convey before their Patronus fails reliably for the right reason. I see what you mean though. Maybe the habit (mental) necessarily built into the Patronus charm would be harder to override more than temporarily due to the strength in habit, or at least without genuinely shifting how that person conceptualises all the relevant stuff.