“Absolute objectivity” is treating physical objects as the foundation. I.e. Observers 1 and 2 should give the same depiction of the bottle, on pain of being wrong, because they are describing the same physical object. It attempts to get rid of perspectives and reason directly in terms of this physical objective reality by taking a “view from nowhere”. It fits our usual intuition of scientific objectivity: “think about how things really are instead of how they appear to be from various viewpoints”.
If we treat perspectives to be axiomatic then the underlying reason for the same depiction by distinct observers is different. For example, some of my interactions with the environment are affected by some cause. By analyzing these interactions using some theories, I conceptualize this cause as an object: “the bottle”. Note, that not all of the affected interactions are directly between me and the bottle. I could also have interactions from the camera that are affected by the bottle. (reflections from the lens, etc) As long as the theories I used are self-consistent, analyzing the direct interactions and indirect interactions should give non-conflicting depictions of the cause (i.e. the object). For objects that affect lots of interactions, i.e. macroscopic, rough depictions from direct and indirect interactions would effectively be the same. Therefore if we imagine using the same theories from the camera’s perspective, it would, effectively, give the same description of the bottle.
So the bottom reason for why Observers 1 and 2 must give the same physical depiction is:
1. Correct physical theories ought to be self-consistent and could work from different perspectives. (uncontroversial)
2. Observers 1 and 2 are interacting with each other, and these interactions are affected by the object they are describing.
No2. holds up pretty well in our daily life. That’s what gives us the intuition of an invariant absolute reality. But if there are no interactions between the observers; if the cause(object) has no effect on these interactions; or even if the effect is too insignificant to carry enough information, then the physical descriptions from different observers have no reason to be the same. There is simply no way to say.
No2. doesn’t seem needed to me. You can observe at different times so observers do not interact. You may not see exactly the same, yes.
Probably my objection comes from that I think that “there is simply no way to say [whether the object is the same]” does not imply that absolute reality does not exist. But it is highly probable that I just don’t understand something in your reasoning (eg. I don’t know what “treat perspectives to be axiomatic” means).
Perspectives here do not just mean spatiotemporal locations. More importantly, it means which thing you are. e.g. you are experiencing the universe from the perspective of a particular human being named mikbp.
Treating perspectives to be axiomatic means any physical description has to be based on the perspective of something. We cannot think from a god’s eye view, and directly describe the world as it is. As in think directly in terms of the “absolute reality”.
If there are no interactions between two observers, then how can either of them say they are giving the same descriptions for an object? To each of them, the existence of the other observer is physically moot. There is ontologically no comparison at all, let alone saying their description are the same or different.
how can either of them say they are giving the same descriptions for an object?
They cannot. But why is it relevant? The fact that they don’t know it does not mean that their description is not the same. In addition, different observers may get different descriptions (eg. an infrared camera does not record the same as a normal camera). That does not change the object observed, just what we know about it. As long as you don’t think you know everything about the objects you observe, this is fine. The more we know, the more physical laws we can infer.
Taking the God’s eye view is restricted to specific problems and it just implies that you know all you need to know for that problem. Of course that’s not something one can do all the time.
You can say even when neither of them can compare the descriptions it still means their descriptions are the same. But from what perspective is this statement made? It is from a god’s eye view that directly thinks in terms of reality.
A self-consistent theory only means from any perspective, analyzing the interactions affected by an object cannot give conflicting descriptions of said object. If the only interaction upon you from the camera is an infra-red photo of the bottle, and from your direct interaction with the bottle you concluded it’s red, and from the infra-red photo you concluded it is green, then there’s something wrong with your theory that needs rectifying.
Besides, applying the same theories from the cameras’ perspective does not necessarily mean an infrared camera and a normal camera would give different (macro-scale) descriptions of the bottle. Sure the cameras give different photos. But the interactions they receive from the bottle are not that different. The infrared camera still gets bombarded by photons of all energy levels. They don’t just pass through the camera unaffected without interacting with it. And physical descriptions are based on them. If instead there is an infrared camera that let photons of higher energy levels pass through without interacting, as if they don’t exist to the camera, then it would give different descriptions.
Look, what I am arguing is that a foundational “absolute reality” is an additional assumption based on our intuition formed in the daily environment. Thinking directly in terms of this absolute reality is problematic outside of our intuitive environment, e.g. high speed or microscopic so we should get rid of this assumption however convenient it proved to be in the past.
I remembered Thomas Nagel said we get the idea of scientific objectivity through 3 steps.
Realize (or postulate) that my experiences are caused by actions upon me from the environment.
Realize (or postulate) that what causes actions upon me can also act on other things. They can exist on their own.
Realize (or postulate) an “true nature” that is independent of any perspective.
People in general regard science as the study of this “true nature” using “a view from nowhere”. I am simply arguing Postulate 3 is taking it too far.
Postulate 1 expands the scope from subjective experiences to actions, i.e. subjective experiences are not special. Postulate 2 expands the scope from my first-person perspective to anything’s perspective, i.e. my perspective is not special. Using only these two is not only more parsimonious, it also fits very well with the increasingly observer/perspective-dependent trend of physical discoveries.
“Absolute objectivity” is treating physical objects as the foundation. I.e. Observers 1 and 2 should give the same depiction of the bottle, on pain of being wrong, because they are describing the same physical object. It attempts to get rid of perspectives and reason directly in terms of this physical objective reality by taking a “view from nowhere”. It fits our usual intuition of scientific objectivity: “think about how things really are instead of how they appear to be from various viewpoints”.
If we treat perspectives to be axiomatic then the underlying reason for the same depiction by distinct observers is different. For example, some of my interactions with the environment are affected by some cause. By analyzing these interactions using some theories, I conceptualize this cause as an object: “the bottle”. Note, that not all of the affected interactions are directly between me and the bottle. I could also have interactions from the camera that are affected by the bottle. (reflections from the lens, etc) As long as the theories I used are self-consistent, analyzing the direct interactions and indirect interactions should give non-conflicting depictions of the cause (i.e. the object). For objects that affect lots of interactions, i.e. macroscopic, rough depictions from direct and indirect interactions would effectively be the same. Therefore if we imagine using the same theories from the camera’s perspective, it would, effectively, give the same description of the bottle.
So the bottom reason for why Observers 1 and 2 must give the same physical depiction is:
1. Correct physical theories ought to be self-consistent and could work from different perspectives. (uncontroversial)
2. Observers 1 and 2 are interacting with each other, and these interactions are affected by the object they are describing.
No2. holds up pretty well in our daily life. That’s what gives us the intuition of an invariant absolute reality. But if there are no interactions between the observers; if the cause(object) has no effect on these interactions; or even if the effect is too insignificant to carry enough information, then the physical descriptions from different observers have no reason to be the same. There is simply no way to say.
I still don’t get it, sorry.
No2. doesn’t seem needed to me. You can observe at different times so observers do not interact. You may not see exactly the same, yes.
Probably my objection comes from that I think that “there is simply no way to say [whether the object is the same]” does not imply that absolute reality does not exist. But it is highly probable that I just don’t understand something in your reasoning (eg. I don’t know what “treat perspectives to be axiomatic” means).
Perspectives here do not just mean spatiotemporal locations. More importantly, it means which thing you are. e.g. you are experiencing the universe from the perspective of a particular human being named mikbp.
Treating perspectives to be axiomatic means any physical description has to be based on the perspective of something. We cannot think from a god’s eye view, and directly describe the world as it is. As in think directly in terms of the “absolute reality”.
If there are no interactions between two observers, then how can either of them say they are giving the same descriptions for an object? To each of them, the existence of the other observer is physically moot. There is ontologically no comparison at all, let alone saying their description are the same or different.
They cannot. But why is it relevant? The fact that they don’t know it does not mean that their description is not the same. In addition, different observers may get different descriptions (eg. an infrared camera does not record the same as a normal camera). That does not change the object observed, just what we know about it. As long as you don’t think you know everything about the objects you observe, this is fine. The more we know, the more physical laws we can infer.
Taking the God’s eye view is restricted to specific problems and it just implies that you know all you need to know for that problem. Of course that’s not something one can do all the time.
You can say even when neither of them can compare the descriptions it still means their descriptions are the same. But from what perspective is this statement made? It is from a god’s eye view that directly thinks in terms of reality.
A self-consistent theory only means from any perspective, analyzing the interactions affected by an object cannot give conflicting descriptions of said object. If the only interaction upon you from the camera is an infra-red photo of the bottle, and from your direct interaction with the bottle you concluded it’s red, and from the infra-red photo you concluded it is green, then there’s something wrong with your theory that needs rectifying.
Besides, applying the same theories from the cameras’ perspective does not necessarily mean an infrared camera and a normal camera would give different (macro-scale) descriptions of the bottle. Sure the cameras give different photos. But the interactions they receive from the bottle are not that different. The infrared camera still gets bombarded by photons of all energy levels. They don’t just pass through the camera unaffected without interacting with it. And physical descriptions are based on them. If instead there is an infrared camera that let photons of higher energy levels pass through without interacting, as if they don’t exist to the camera, then it would give different descriptions.
Look, what I am arguing is that a foundational “absolute reality” is an additional assumption based on our intuition formed in the daily environment. Thinking directly in terms of this absolute reality is problematic outside of our intuitive environment, e.g. high speed or microscopic so we should get rid of this assumption however convenient it proved to be in the past.
I remembered Thomas Nagel said we get the idea of scientific objectivity through 3 steps.
Realize (or postulate) that my experiences are caused by actions upon me from the environment.
Realize (or postulate) that what causes actions upon me can also act on other things. They can exist on their own.
Realize (or postulate) an “true nature” that is independent of any perspective.
People in general regard science as the study of this “true nature” using “a view from nowhere”. I am simply arguing Postulate 3 is taking it too far.
Postulate 1 expands the scope from subjective experiences to actions, i.e. subjective experiences are not special. Postulate 2 expands the scope from my first-person perspective to anything’s perspective, i.e. my perspective is not special. Using only these two is not only more parsimonious, it also fits very well with the increasingly observer/perspective-dependent trend of physical discoveries.
Okay, I disagree :-)