Ugh, because productive discussion happens between perfectly dispassionate robots in a vacuum, and if I’m not one then it is my fault and I should be ashamed? Specifically, I should be ashamed just for saying that something made me uncomfortable rather than suffering in silence? I mean, if that’s your vision, it’s fine, I understand. But I wonder whether that’s really the predominant opinion around here? What about all the stuff about “community” and “Village” etc?
Ugh, because productive discussion happens between perfectly dispassionate robots in a vacuum, and if I’m not one then it is my fault and I should be ashamed?
As discussed in the linked thread—it is none of my business, nor the business of any of your interlocutors, whether you are, or are not, a “perfectly dispassionate robot in a vacuum”, when it comes to discussions on subjects like the OP. That is not something which should enter into the discussion at all; it is simply off-topic.
If we permit the introduction of such questions as whether you feel uncomfortable (about the topic, or any on-topic claims) into discussions of abstract epistemology, or Bayesian inference, or logic, etc., when that discomfort in no way bears on the truth or falsity of the claims under discussion, then we might as well close up shop, because at that point, we have bid good-bye even to the pretense of “rationality”, much less the fact of it.
And if the “predominant opinion” disagrees—so much the worse for predominant opinion; and so much the sadder for Less Wrong.
Edit: And all this is, of course, not even mentioning your conflation of “I am uncomfortable” with insinuating comments about “sinister context”, and implications of wrongdoing on Zack’s part!
Alright, let’s suppose it’s off-topic in this thread, or even on this forum. But is there another place within the community’s “discussion space” where it is on-topic? Or you don’t think such a place should exist at all?
I’ve found /r/TheMotte (recently forked from /r/slatestarcodex) to be a good place to discuss politically-charged topics? (Again, also happy to talk privately sometime.)
I wasn’t referring to “where to discuss politically charged topics”, I was referring to “where to discuss the fact that something that happens on LessWrong.com makes me uncomfortable because [reasons]”.
To be honest I prefer to avoid politically charged topics, as long as they avoid me (which they didn’t, in this case).
I just want to chime in quickly to say that I disagree with Said here pretty heavily, but also don’t know that I agree with any other single person in the conversation, and articulating what I actually believe would require more time than I have right now.
I love that you’re willing to say that, but I’m a bit confused as to what purpose that comment serves. Without some indication of which parts you disagree with, and what things you DO believe, all this is saying is “I take no responsibility for what everyone is saying here”, which I assume is true for all of us.
Personally, I agree with Said on a number of aspects—a reader’s reaction to a topic, or to a poster, is not sufficient reason to do anything. This is especially true when the reader’s reaction is primarily based on non-LW information. I DISAGREE that this makes all discussion fair game, as long as it’s got a robe of abstraction which allows deniability that it relates to the painful topic.
I don’t know that I’ve seen anyone besides me claim that the abstraction seems too thin. It would take a discussion of when it applies and when it does not to get me to ignore my (limited) understanding of the participants’ positions on the related-but-not-on-LW topic.
Generally, if you want to talk about how LW is moderated or unpleasant behavior happening here, you should talk to me. [If you think I’m making mistakes, the person to talk to is probably Habryka.] We don’t have an official ombudsman, and perhaps it’s worth putting some effort into finding one.
I mean, the sum total of spaces that the rationalist community uses to hold discussions, propagate information, do collective decision making, (presumably) provide mutual support et cetera, to the extent these spaces are effective in fulfilling their functions. Anywhere where I can say something and people in the community will listen to me, and take this new information into account if it’s worth taking into account, or at least provide me with compassionate feedback even if it’s not.
Firstly, I have always said (and this incident has once again reinforced my view of this) that “we”, which is to say “rationalists”, should not be a “community”.
But, of course, things are what they are. Still, it is hardly any of my business, as a participant of Less Wrong, what discussions you have elsewhere, on some other forum. Why should it be?
Of course, it would be quite beyond the pale if the outcomes of those discussions were used in deciding (by those who have the authority to decide these things—basically, I mean the admins of Less Wrong) how to treat someone here!
In short, I am saying: in other places, discuss whatever you want to discuss (assuming your discussions are appropriate thereto… but, in any case—not my business). None of that should affect any discussions here. “I propose to treat <Less Wrong participant X> in such-and-such a way—why? because he said or did so-and-so, in another place entirely”—this ought not be acceptable or tolerated.
Firstly, I have always said (and this incident has once again reinforced my view of this) that “we”, which is to say “rationalists”, should not be a “community”.
Well, that is a legitimate opinion. I just want to point out that it did not appear to be the consensus so far. If it is the consensus (or becomes such) then it seems fair to ask to make it clear, in particular to inform’s people’s decisions about how and whether to interact with the forum.
I won’t go so far as to say there should be no community, but I do believe that it (or they; there are likely lots of involved communities of rationalists) is not synonymous with LessWrong. There is overlap in topics discussed, but there are good LW topics that are irrelevant to some or all communities, and there are LOTS of community topics that don’t do well on LW.
And that includes topics that, in a vacuum, would be appropriate to LW, but are deeply related to topics in a community which are NOT good for LW. Sorry, but that entanglement of ideas makes it impossible to discuss rationally in a large group.
Ugh, because productive discussion happens between perfectly dispassionate robots in a vacuum, and if I’m not one then it is my fault and I should be ashamed? Specifically, I should be ashamed just for saying that something made me uncomfortable rather than suffering in silence? I mean, if that’s your vision, it’s fine, I understand. But I wonder whether that’s really the predominant opinion around here? What about all the stuff about “community” and “Village” etc?
As discussed in the linked thread—it is none of my business, nor the business of any of your interlocutors, whether you are, or are not, a “perfectly dispassionate robot in a vacuum”, when it comes to discussions on subjects like the OP. That is not something which should enter into the discussion at all; it is simply off-topic.
If we permit the introduction of such questions as whether you feel uncomfortable (about the topic, or any on-topic claims) into discussions of abstract epistemology, or Bayesian inference, or logic, etc., when that discomfort in no way bears on the truth or falsity of the claims under discussion, then we might as well close up shop, because at that point, we have bid good-bye even to the pretense of “rationality”, much less the fact of it.
And if the “predominant opinion” disagrees—so much the worse for predominant opinion; and so much the sadder for Less Wrong.
Edit: And all this is, of course, not even mentioning your conflation of “I am uncomfortable” with insinuating comments about “sinister context”, and implications of wrongdoing on Zack’s part!
Alright, let’s suppose it’s off-topic in this thread, or even on this forum. But is there another place within the community’s “discussion space” where it is on-topic? Or you don’t think such a place should exist at all?
I’ve found /r/TheMotte (recently forked from /r/slatestarcodex) to be a good place to discuss politically-charged topics? (Again, also happy to talk privately sometime.)
I wasn’t referring to “where to discuss politically charged topics”, I was referring to “where to discuss the fact that something that happens on LessWrong.com makes me uncomfortable because [reasons]”.
To be honest I prefer to avoid politically charged topics, as long as they avoid me (which they didn’t, in this case).
I just want to chime in quickly to say that I disagree with Said here pretty heavily, but also don’t know that I agree with any other single person in the conversation, and articulating what I actually believe would require more time than I have right now.
I love that you’re willing to say that, but I’m a bit confused as to what purpose that comment serves. Without some indication of which parts you disagree with, and what things you DO believe, all this is saying is “I take no responsibility for what everyone is saying here”, which I assume is true for all of us.
Personally, I agree with Said on a number of aspects—a reader’s reaction to a topic, or to a poster, is not sufficient reason to do anything. This is especially true when the reader’s reaction is primarily based on non-LW information. I DISAGREE that this makes all discussion fair game, as long as it’s got a robe of abstraction which allows deniability that it relates to the painful topic.
I don’t know that I’ve seen anyone besides me claim that the abstraction seems too thin. It would take a discussion of when it applies and when it does not to get me to ignore my (limited) understanding of the participants’ positions on the related-but-not-on-LW topic.
Generally, if you want to talk about how LW is moderated or unpleasant behavior happening here, you should talk to me. [If you think I’m making mistakes, the person to talk to is probably Habryka.] We don’t have an official ombudsman, and perhaps it’s worth putting some effort into finding one.
This information should be publicly findable. And ideally anonymous information about reports received should also be published.
Alright, thank you!
What do you mean by ‘the community’s “discussion space”’? Are you referring to Less Wrong? Or something else?
I mean, the sum total of spaces that the rationalist community uses to hold discussions, propagate information, do collective decision making, (presumably) provide mutual support et cetera, to the extent these spaces are effective in fulfilling their functions. Anywhere where I can say something and people in the community will listen to me, and take this new information into account if it’s worth taking into account, or at least provide me with compassionate feedback even if it’s not.
Firstly, I have always said (and this incident has once again reinforced my view of this) that “we”, which is to say “rationalists”, should not be a “community”.
But, of course, things are what they are. Still, it is hardly any of my business, as a participant of Less Wrong, what discussions you have elsewhere, on some other forum. Why should it be?
Of course, it would be quite beyond the pale if the outcomes of those discussions were used in deciding (by those who have the authority to decide these things—basically, I mean the admins of Less Wrong) how to treat someone here!
In short, I am saying: in other places, discuss whatever you want to discuss (assuming your discussions are appropriate thereto… but, in any case—not my business). None of that should affect any discussions here. “I propose to treat <Less Wrong participant X> in such-and-such a way—why? because he said or did so-and-so, in another place entirely”—this ought not be acceptable or tolerated.
Well, that is a legitimate opinion. I just want to point out that it did not appear to be the consensus so far. If it is the consensus (or becomes such) then it seems fair to ask to make it clear, in particular to inform’s people’s decisions about how and whether to interact with the forum.
I think it is fairly clear that it’s not the consensus; I alluded to this in my comment (perhaps too obliquely?).
The rest of my comment should be read with the understanding that I’m aware of the above fact.
I won’t go so far as to say there should be no community, but I do believe that it (or they; there are likely lots of involved communities of rationalists) is not synonymous with LessWrong. There is overlap in topics discussed, but there are good LW topics that are irrelevant to some or all communities, and there are LOTS of community topics that don’t do well on LW.
And that includes topics that, in a vacuum, would be appropriate to LW, but are deeply related to topics in a community which are NOT good for LW. Sorry, but that entanglement of ideas makes it impossible to discuss rationally in a large group.