“Frogs have subjective experience” is the biggy, there’s a number of other things I already know myself to be confused about which impact on that, and so I don’t know exactly what I should be looking for in the frog that would make me think it had a sense of its own existence. Certainly there are any number of news items I could receive about the frog’s mental abilities, brain complexity, type of algorithmic processing, ability to reflect on its own thought processes, etcetera, which would make me think it was more likely that the frog was what a non-confused person of myself would regard as fulfilling the predicate I currently call “capable of experiencing pain”, as opposed to being a more complicated version of neural network reinforcement-learning algorithms that I have no qualms about running on a computer.
A simple example would be if frogs could recognize dots painted on them when seeing themselves in mirrors, or if frogs showed signs of being able to learn very simple grammar like “jump blue box”. (If all human beings were being cryonically suspended I would start agitating for the chimpanzees.)
I am very surprised that you suggest that “having subjective experience” is a yes/no thing. I thought it is consensus opinion here that it is not. I am not sure about others on LW, but I would even go three steps further: it is not even a strict ordering of things. It is not even a partial ordering of things. I believe it can be only defined in the context of an Observer and an Object, where Observer gives some amount of weight to the theory that Object’s subjective experience is similar to Observer’s own.
I thought it is consensus opinion here that it is not.
Links? I’d be interested in seeing what people on LW thought about this, if it’s been discussed before. I can understand the yes/no position, or the idea that there’s a blurry line somewhere between thermostats and humans, but I don’t understand what you mean about the Observer and Object. The Observer in your example has subjective experience?
We’re not looking for objective experience, thus we’re simply looking for experience. If we now define ‘a sense of one’s own existence’ as the experience of self-awareness, i.e. consciousness, and if we also regard unconscious experience as unworthy, we’re left with consciousness.
Now since we can not define consciousness, we need a working definition. What are some important aspects of consciousness? ‘Thinking’, which requires ‘knowledge’ (data), is not the operative point between being an iPhone and being human. It’s information processing after all. So what do we mean by unconscious, opposed to consciousness decision making? It’s about deliberate, purposeful (goal-oriented) adaption. Thus to be consciousness is to be able to shape your environment in a way that it suits your volition.
The ability to define a system within the environment in which it is embedded to be yourself.
To be goal-oriented
The specific effectiveness and order of transformation by which the self-defined system (you) shapes the outside environment, in which it is embedded, does trump the environmental influence on the defined system. (more)
How could this help with the frog-dilemma? Are frogs consciousness?
Are there signs of active environmental adaption by the frog-society as indicated by behavioral variability?
To what extent is frog behavior predictable?
That is, we have to fathom the extent of active adaption of the environment by frogs opposed to passive adaption of frogs by the the environment. Further, one needs to test the frogs ability of deliberate, spontaneous behavior given environmental (experimental) stimuli and see if frogs can evade, i.e. action vs reaction.
P.S.
No attempt at a solution, just some quick thoughts I wanted to write down for clearance and possible feedback.
Are there any possible facts that would make you consider frogs objects of moral worth if you found out they were true?
(Edited for clarity.)
“Frogs have subjective experience” is the biggy, there’s a number of other things I already know myself to be confused about which impact on that, and so I don’t know exactly what I should be looking for in the frog that would make me think it had a sense of its own existence. Certainly there are any number of news items I could receive about the frog’s mental abilities, brain complexity, type of algorithmic processing, ability to reflect on its own thought processes, etcetera, which would make me think it was more likely that the frog was what a non-confused person of myself would regard as fulfilling the predicate I currently call “capable of experiencing pain”, as opposed to being a more complicated version of neural network reinforcement-learning algorithms that I have no qualms about running on a computer.
A simple example would be if frogs could recognize dots painted on them when seeing themselves in mirrors, or if frogs showed signs of being able to learn very simple grammar like “jump blue box”. (If all human beings were being cryonically suspended I would start agitating for the chimpanzees.)
I am very surprised that you suggest that “having subjective experience” is a yes/no thing. I thought it is consensus opinion here that it is not. I am not sure about others on LW, but I would even go three steps further: it is not even a strict ordering of things. It is not even a partial ordering of things. I believe it can be only defined in the context of an Observer and an Object, where Observer gives some amount of weight to the theory that Object’s subjective experience is similar to Observer’s own.
Links? I’d be interested in seeing what people on LW thought about this, if it’s been discussed before. I can understand the yes/no position, or the idea that there’s a blurry line somewhere between thermostats and humans, but I don’t understand what you mean about the Observer and Object. The Observer in your example has subjective experience?
I like the way you phrased your concern for “subjective experience”—those are the types of characteristics I care about as well.
But I’m curious: What does ability to learn simple grammar have to do with subjective experience?
We’re not looking for objective experience, thus we’re simply looking for experience. If we now define ‘a sense of one’s own existence’ as the experience of self-awareness, i.e. consciousness, and if we also regard unconscious experience as unworthy, we’re left with consciousness.
Now since we can not define consciousness, we need a working definition. What are some important aspects of consciousness? ‘Thinking’, which requires ‘knowledge’ (data), is not the operative point between being an iPhone and being human. It’s information processing after all. So what do we mean by unconscious, opposed to consciousness decision making? It’s about deliberate, purposeful (goal-oriented) adaption. Thus to be consciousness is to be able to shape your environment in a way that it suits your volition.
The ability to define a system within the environment in which it is embedded to be yourself.
To be goal-oriented
The specific effectiveness and order of transformation by which the self-defined system (you) shapes the outside environment, in which it is embedded, does trump the environmental influence on the defined system. (more)
How could this help with the frog-dilemma? Are frogs consciousness?
Are there signs of active environmental adaption by the frog-society as indicated by behavioral variability?
To what extent is frog behavior predictable?
That is, we have to fathom the extent of active adaption of the environment by frogs opposed to passive adaption of frogs by the the environment. Further, one needs to test the frogs ability of deliberate, spontaneous behavior given environmental (experimental) stimuli and see if frogs can evade, i.e. action vs reaction.
P.S. No attempt at a solution, just some quick thoughts I wanted to write down for clearance and possible feedback.