For what it’s worth: I consider myself a “debater” in the sense you mean, but there are plenty of things where I believe them, I feel strongly about them, and I believe I could be out-argued by a sufficiently clever articulation of an opposing view, even if that view was wrong.
Out-argued in what sense? Do you think that you wouldn’t be able to see why their arguments were wrong, or just that you wouldn’t be able to persuade an impartial audience that you were more right?
On subjects that I hold strong beliefs in, I anticipate that I could not be out-argued in the first sense. If someone was able to offer such arguments, I would either have to conclude that they were right, or that I didn’t understand the topic as well as I thought I did in the first place, and would have to revise the strength of my beliefs.
I’m not certain that the dividing line between those two senses is as crisp as you make it sound, but I guess I mean something like the latter sense. That is, I can imagine someone articulating their arguments for -P in such a way that their arguments are more compelling than mine are for P, even when P is true.
The dividing line comes from the fact that an impartial audience is not at all the same thing as a rational audience, and there’s a lot more to rhetoric than making arguments that are logically sound and tenable.
My general defence against this is to be too difficult to actually convince. I nod and smile and acknowledge the quality of the arguments but am not actually convinced to change my mind. I may well have taken this too far. (It certainly frustrates the heck out of people.) It’s useful if you know you’re fond enough of new ideas to be susceptible to neophilia-induced bad ideas. It’s somewhat like being just plain dim.
Ah. It sounds like we have different interpretations of what SarahC meant by out-argued.
I don’t believe a clever debater can long-term convince me of the falsehood of something I believe and feel strongly about (sadly, even if it’s true), although they might induce me to go along temporarily.
This is, incidentally, not to say that I can’t be caught up in cultishness, merely to say that clever arguments are sufficient (or, sadly, necessary) to do it. (ETA: er… I meant, of course, “are not sufficient,” which was perhaps clear)
For what it’s worth: I consider myself a “debater” in the sense you mean, but there are plenty of things where I believe them, I feel strongly about them, and I believe I could be out-argued by a sufficiently clever articulation of an opposing view, even if that view was wrong.
Out-argued in what sense? Do you think that you wouldn’t be able to see why their arguments were wrong, or just that you wouldn’t be able to persuade an impartial audience that you were more right?
On subjects that I hold strong beliefs in, I anticipate that I could not be out-argued in the first sense. If someone was able to offer such arguments, I would either have to conclude that they were right, or that I didn’t understand the topic as well as I thought I did in the first place, and would have to revise the strength of my beliefs.
I’m not certain that the dividing line between those two senses is as crisp as you make it sound, but I guess I mean something like the latter sense. That is, I can imagine someone articulating their arguments for -P in such a way that their arguments are more compelling than mine are for P, even when P is true.
The dividing line comes from the fact that an impartial audience is not at all the same thing as a rational audience, and there’s a lot more to rhetoric than making arguments that are logically sound and tenable.
My general defence against this is to be too difficult to actually convince. I nod and smile and acknowledge the quality of the arguments but am not actually convinced to change my mind. I may well have taken this too far. (It certainly frustrates the heck out of people.) It’s useful if you know you’re fond enough of new ideas to be susceptible to neophilia-induced bad ideas. It’s somewhat like being just plain dim.
Ah. It sounds like we have different interpretations of what SarahC meant by out-argued.
I don’t believe a clever debater can long-term convince me of the falsehood of something I believe and feel strongly about (sadly, even if it’s true), although they might induce me to go along temporarily.
This is, incidentally, not to say that I can’t be caught up in cultishness, merely to say that clever arguments are sufficient (or, sadly, necessary) to do it. (ETA: er… I meant, of course, “are not sufficient,” which was perhaps clear)