I think this post beautifully (though indirectly) illustrates a few things:
the importance of debating only those “in front of you”
the importance of separating personal ideas from group ideas
the relative futility of debating against or on behalf of a group
In the first example you give, the error in pointing out a motte-and-bailey is that a motte-and-bailey hasn’t actually occurred in the context of the conversation. If we bring up the bailey before it has actually been presented as an argument, we imply that we expect the other person to use it, and by extension, that they will argue in bad faith. The appropriate defense then (assuming you’re telling the truth) is: “There may be some people who make that argument, but I haven’t and I’m not going to, because I don’t agree with it. Let’s focus on the arguments each of us is actually making, okay?”
Similarly, if we make the argument “You belong to this group, and members of this group often use that statement as a motte, but they assert corresponding bailey X when they think they can get away with it”, then we are assuming that the other person’s beliefs are perfectly in line with our perception of their group’s beliefs. This is also incorrect, and on two levels this time: we don’t know that this person believes everything the group believes unless they say so, and we don’t know if we have an accurate understanding of what their group believes if we are not part of it (or sometimes even if we are!).
We can take this even farther! Suppose the other person belongs to Group X, whose leadership or designated representative (or group of representatives) maintains a publicly-available platform, manifesto, or statement of purpose that clearly lays out what the group as a whole believes. In that case, we might be able to say we understand what the group believes, but we still can’t say for sure what the group member in front of us believes, because they still don’t necessarily need to agree with everything the group says (though such incongruity can sometimes open up other avenues of debate). In both of the preceding examples, the appropriate defense would be: “I may be a member of Group X [and Group X might as a whole support argument Y], but there are places where Group X and I disagree, including argument Y. Let’s focus on the arguments we each make personally, okay?”
It’s also important not to get baited into arguing against something we don’t personally believe. Unless we’re acting in an official capacity as a member of Group X, I think it’s totally okay to refuse to engage when someone brings up the group’s platform by saying something like “As a member of Group X, I do have an understanding of why some members use Argument Y, but I don’t agree with Argument Y, so I’m not going to defend it.”
In other words, I think it’s fine to point out a motte-and-bailey, but only when someone has actually used it. It seems like the real issue is people pointing it out when it hasn’t happened, as Davide_Zagami has already pointed out.
I think this post beautifully (though indirectly) illustrates a few things:
the importance of debating only those “in front of you”
the importance of separating personal ideas from group ideas
the relative futility of debating against or on behalf of a group
In the first example you give, the error in pointing out a motte-and-bailey is that a motte-and-bailey hasn’t actually occurred in the context of the conversation. If we bring up the bailey before it has actually been presented as an argument, we imply that we expect the other person to use it, and by extension, that they will argue in bad faith. The appropriate defense then (assuming you’re telling the truth) is: “There may be some people who make that argument, but I haven’t and I’m not going to, because I don’t agree with it. Let’s focus on the arguments each of us is actually making, okay?”
Similarly, if we make the argument “You belong to this group, and members of this group often use that statement as a motte, but they assert corresponding bailey X when they think they can get away with it”, then we are assuming that the other person’s beliefs are perfectly in line with our perception of their group’s beliefs. This is also incorrect, and on two levels this time: we don’t know that this person believes everything the group believes unless they say so, and we don’t know if we have an accurate understanding of what their group believes if we are not part of it (or sometimes even if we are!).
We can take this even farther! Suppose the other person belongs to Group X, whose leadership or designated representative (or group of representatives) maintains a publicly-available platform, manifesto, or statement of purpose that clearly lays out what the group as a whole believes. In that case, we might be able to say we understand what the group believes, but we still can’t say for sure what the group member in front of us believes, because they still don’t necessarily need to agree with everything the group says (though such incongruity can sometimes open up other avenues of debate). In both of the preceding examples, the appropriate defense would be: “I may be a member of Group X [and Group X might as a whole support argument Y], but there are places where Group X and I disagree, including argument Y. Let’s focus on the arguments we each make personally, okay?”
It’s also important not to get baited into arguing against something we don’t personally believe. Unless we’re acting in an official capacity as a member of Group X, I think it’s totally okay to refuse to engage when someone brings up the group’s platform by saying something like “As a member of Group X, I do have an understanding of why some members use Argument Y, but I don’t agree with Argument Y, so I’m not going to defend it.”
In other words, I think it’s fine to point out a motte-and-bailey, but only when someone has actually used it. It seems like the real issue is people pointing it out when it hasn’t happened, as Davide_Zagami has already pointed out.