[B]ut if what you really want is her deconversion, you already want to manipulate her and might as well use effective tools (rhetoric, emotional blackmail, cognitive biases, reputation/shaming… whatever suits you) rather than less effective means such as facts, evidence, or logical reasoning.
I take strong objection to this sentiment. Even ignoring the ethical and tactical problems with manipulating people into doing what you want for non-truth-based reasons, the excerpted statement proves too much. Just because I want somebody to do something or believe something, I necessarily want to manipulate them? But then in what circumstance would I ever want to appeal to “facts, evidence, or logical reasoning”? In writing the Sequences and trying to awake informed rationalism in potential AI researchers, was Eliezer “manipulating” his readers? Well, yes, if you mean he took action to effect a desired change in others. No, if you mean he felt free to use any sort of rhetorical tools available.
Perhaps I’m responsible for some confusion here, when I said I would “settle” for her not becoming Catholic. What I meant was not that the I care primarily about her identification as “Catholic” or “not Catholic,” as if the very fact of identification is itself relevant. What I care about is that she genuinely recognize why moving her beliefs, values, and behavior toward the Catholic cluster would be a Bad Idea. I care that she have an informed desire to not want to convert, not just that she ends up deciding not to identify as Catholic for whatever reason.
While I am highly sympathetic to your desire to not want her to make her decisions for “non-truth based reasons,” in and of itself your desire: to want her to want to change her beliefs (back) merely moves the problem back a step. I did not mean to imply that you want to or should want to change her mind by any particular means, but there is only so far that you can constrain a problem before it becomes impossible or impractical to solve.
What you seem to want is for her to change back purely on the basis of obtaining information. If you possess information, know that you possess it, AND she is unusually receptive to this approach, you will probably be able to proceed. If, however, you suspect that she will be commonly resistant to this approach or that she has already rationalized away what new information you will provide (or do so upon hearing it) then it would seem likely that this approach will not work.
I do sincerely hope this situation is of the luckier sort, even if I would bet otherwise.
I take strong objection to this sentiment. Even ignoring the ethical and tactical problems with manipulating people into doing what you want for non-truth-based reasons, the excerpted statement proves too much. Just because I want somebody to do something or believe something, I necessarily want to manipulate them? But then in what circumstance would I ever want to appeal to “facts, evidence, or logical reasoning”? In writing the Sequences and trying to awake informed rationalism in potential AI researchers, was Eliezer “manipulating” his readers? Well, yes, if you mean he took action to effect a desired change in others. No, if you mean he felt free to use any sort of rhetorical tools available.
Perhaps I’m responsible for some confusion here, when I said I would “settle” for her not becoming Catholic. What I meant was not that the I care primarily about her identification as “Catholic” or “not Catholic,” as if the very fact of identification is itself relevant. What I care about is that she genuinely recognize why moving her beliefs, values, and behavior toward the Catholic cluster would be a Bad Idea. I care that she have an informed desire to not want to convert, not just that she ends up deciding not to identify as Catholic for whatever reason.
Upvoted.
While I am highly sympathetic to your desire to not want her to make her decisions for “non-truth based reasons,” in and of itself your desire: to want her to want to change her beliefs (back) merely moves the problem back a step. I did not mean to imply that you want to or should want to change her mind by any particular means, but there is only so far that you can constrain a problem before it becomes impossible or impractical to solve.
What you seem to want is for her to change back purely on the basis of obtaining information. If you possess information, know that you possess it, AND she is unusually receptive to this approach, you will probably be able to proceed. If, however, you suspect that she will be commonly resistant to this approach or that she has already rationalized away what new information you will provide (or do so upon hearing it) then it would seem likely that this approach will not work.
I do sincerely hope this situation is of the luckier sort, even if I would bet otherwise.