I just don’t find that particular joke funny. Unless I’m surrounded by a regiment of the PLA who will beat me if I don’t fit in, I don’t see a reason why I should bother lying about that. Do you find it funny but think you shouldn’t?
Also you are ignoring the great benefit of apolitical action. By being generally apolitical, you won’t be the first one picked for promotions in any system be it democracy or communism, but neither will people feel a strong urge to spend energy trying to hurt you because you belong to a different tribe. Or, for personal benefit, spread word of your nonconformity to decent norms like considering democracy the best form of government possible or believing in the Holy Trinity or the international conspiracy of Jewish bankers and Bolsheviks. I won’t be dragged in front of a court for speaking my mind about the king or the party or whatever limitations on freedom of speech my society has. Neither will I be fired, nor will my friends ostracise me. If you think most people are crazy about something, well, why poke people in conversation by screwing with their “are you part of my tribe” pings, when it does neither of you any good?
Quite often if you refrain from political statements people assume you agree with their politics which means you can get more positive interactions with them than otherwise, mind projection fallacy FTW. In most situations being apolitical seems to be a net gain.
Also, if everything is politics then nothing is politics.
Well, we agree that A2 is the apolitical answer and A3 is the political answer (and A1 is the jerkwad answer).
I also agree that being apolitical is often a useful instrumental value. As you say, there’s a strong tendency for people to overestimate the importance of their pet issues, and setting a high priority on non-commitment can counter-act that. But non-commitment is only an instrumental value, not a terminal value.
Further, I think you overestimate the cost of speaking up. I was once waiting in line at the airport and a young Asian man was having a lot of trouble with the automated check-in machines. The person next to me said something like, “It’s strange that he’s having so much trouble,” obviously invoking the idea that all Asians are good at technology.
I think this kind of essentialist thinking is morally wrong. I could have said nothing. Your recommendation would have been that I say nothing. But I stated a rebuke. (Basically, “There’s already enough trouble in the world. Why go out of your way to make more for someone else?”)
I’m saying that was a political decision, and so would have been the decision not to say something.
But non-commitment is only an instrumental value, not a terminal value.
I think I can generally agree with that.
I’m saying that was a political decision, and so would have been the decision not to say something
Recall when I said:
if everything is politics then nothing is politics.
Can we try and taboo politics? If I understand you right you are basically equating politics with morality. In other words every act has an effect, sometimes tiny sometimes large, on your expected utility (which obviously factors in any morality or set of values you hold).
You’re the one arguing for non-involvement. If every act has moral consequences, how can one justify deciding not to “get involved” without knowing the particular context?
Your original comment did not give the impression that context was important. More precisely, you seemed to assert that the average LessWronger was unlikely to ever be in a position in which the non-involvement principle would lead them astray.
I think this is what opposing racism can look like. Or standing to allow a child and parent to have connecting seats on the subway, which both subsidizes something I think is worthy of subsidy and helps set the social norm for future situations.
It seems like the non-involvement principle says I shouldn’t have done either of those things.
Ah, very good then. Clearly, we have insufficiently formalized what it means to be apolitical. I always assumed that it meant following the relevant social norms of whatever society one finds oneself in, avoiding political argument, and taking a carefully crafted “neutral-stance” on political issues.
I certainly agree that if the non-involvement principle recommends against exercising laudable virtues, then the principle is a bad one. However, I do not think anyone has in mind a principle which would forbid giving up one’s subway seat.
However, the non-involvement principle does seem to recommend against that particular method of opposing racism. If you consider this a flaw, that seems to be a perfectly coherent reason to reject the principle.
I think you are right that the racism example is better than the subway hypothetical.
Konkvistador’s use of the word political to only reference being active in the process of selecting public officials is quite conventional. For reasons based on feminist thought, I think this understanding artificially restricts the sorts of problems and approaches that can be addressed. In other words, I think the conventional definition is wrong, in that it doesn’t actually reference everything that it seems to be trying to reference. Thus, I prefer to say that “The personal is political.”
But the other issue I had with his original comment was that the OP was talking about having an open mind about ideology, not simply politics. To the extent that the OP was reconsidering his ideological commitments, I was to suggest that committing to some type of apolitical stance (either under my understanding or Konkvistador’s) was not necessarily optimal.
However, the non-involvement principle does seem to recommend against that particular method of opposing racism. If you consider this a flaw, that seems to be a perfectly coherent reason to reject the principle.
Yes. Life doesn’t come labelled “racism issue.” If you don’t think about what you’ll do in ambiguous situations ahead of time (which being apolitical suggests you shouldn’t), you won’t act. Getting things done isn’t often polite, as this comment notes.
Clearly, we have insufficiently formalized what it means to be apolitical.
A few comments up I linked to the wikipedia definition to formalize my usage:
The state or quality of being apolitical can be the apathy and/or the antipathy towards all political affiliations.
I think I’m basically pretty much at antipathy. I have a negative and I think pretty justified attitude towards those trying to enthuse me for political affiliations as people trying to hijack my goals for their own purposes.
I always assumed that it meant following the relevant social norms of whatever society one finds oneself in, avoiding political argument, and taking a carefully crafted “neutral-stance” on political issues.
That is how I intended to use the word. Considering oneself neutral in the great tribal struggles of one’s time, aids one in having a better map of reality. It also helps to avoid hijacking by predatory memes.
I certainly agree that if the non-involvement principle recommends against exercising laudable virtues, then the principle is a bad one.
I don’t know why anyone would choose to describe this as the primary use of the word “apolitical”.
I don’t know why anyone would choose to describe this as apolitical.
I must confess, neither do I. I hope that I did not inadvertently imply that I endorse the antecedent of the conditional:
if the non-involvement principle recommends against exercising laudable virtues, then the principle is a bad one
Edit: I did not mean to imply that I believed that you were implying that I did. I just wished to clarify, in order to negate the small-probability that such a miscommunication had occurred.
If every act has moral consequences, how can one justify deciding not to “get involved” without knowing the particular context?
I have given a context (Politics) and we know much about this class of contexts. Taking an outside view getting emotionally involved in these generally produces one of the worst kinds of bias. “Political” actions generally amount to nothing but naked power struggles that rarely acheive “what it says on the label”.
An apolitical mind is a better mind was my original statement. If you consider everything to be “politics” then this statement would read “a goalless or inactive mind is a better mind”, to be truly goalless may indeed be impossible while having a working brain and to be fully inactive is to be irrational. Clearly one then dosen’t have a something that could be called a “better mind” in any sense (unless you are negative utilitarian—Do no ill!).
If my use of “politics”, dosen’t match your own specific usage feel free to replace it with bjarndorf or some such word of your choosing. A-bjandorfian minds are better minds. There.
Q: What do you call it when you find a Jew up to his neck in sand?
A1: No enough sand.
A2: (change subject)
A3: That’s not funny.
Choosing between those answers is political. There is no unbiased stance.
Noticing that doesn’t require you to delude yourself that your vote in an election will have any important influence on the result.
I just don’t find that particular joke funny. Unless I’m surrounded by a regiment of the PLA who will beat me if I don’t fit in, I don’t see a reason why I should bother lying about that. Do you find it funny but think you shouldn’t?
Also you are ignoring the great benefit of apolitical action. By being generally apolitical, you won’t be the first one picked for promotions in any system be it democracy or communism, but neither will people feel a strong urge to spend energy trying to hurt you because you belong to a different tribe. Or, for personal benefit, spread word of your nonconformity to decent norms like considering democracy the best form of government possible or believing in the Holy Trinity or the international conspiracy of Jewish bankers and Bolsheviks. I won’t be dragged in front of a court for speaking my mind about the king or the party or whatever limitations on freedom of speech my society has. Neither will I be fired, nor will my friends ostracise me. If you think most people are crazy about something, well, why poke people in conversation by screwing with their “are you part of my tribe” pings, when it does neither of you any good?
Quite often if you refrain from political statements people assume you agree with their politics which means you can get more positive interactions with them than otherwise, mind projection fallacy FTW. In most situations being apolitical seems to be a net gain.
Also, if everything is politics then nothing is politics.
Well, we agree that A2 is the apolitical answer and A3 is the political answer (and A1 is the jerkwad answer).
I also agree that being apolitical is often a useful instrumental value. As you say, there’s a strong tendency for people to overestimate the importance of their pet issues, and setting a high priority on non-commitment can counter-act that. But non-commitment is only an instrumental value, not a terminal value.
Further, I think you overestimate the cost of speaking up. I was once waiting in line at the airport and a young Asian man was having a lot of trouble with the automated check-in machines. The person next to me said something like, “It’s strange that he’s having so much trouble,” obviously invoking the idea that all Asians are good at technology.
I think this kind of essentialist thinking is morally wrong. I could have said nothing. Your recommendation would have been that I say nothing. But I stated a rebuke. (Basically, “There’s already enough trouble in the world. Why go out of your way to make more for someone else?”)
I’m saying that was a political decision, and so would have been the decision not to say something.
I think I can generally agree with that.
Recall when I said:
Can we try and taboo politics? If I understand you right you are basically equating politics with morality. In other words every act has an effect, sometimes tiny sometimes large, on your expected utility (which obviously factors in any morality or set of values you hold).
But it is an important insight that everything (every social interaction, at least) really is political.
I don’t see how. It seems much more insightful to say political acts always have moral consequences.
I’d rather say “All social acts have moral consequences.”
All acts have moral consequences.
You’re the one arguing for non-involvement. If every act has moral consequences, how can one justify deciding not to “get involved” without knowing the particular context?
Your original comment did not give the impression that context was important. More precisely, you seemed to assert that the average LessWronger was unlikely to ever be in a position in which the non-involvement principle would lead them astray.
Could you give an example of such a case? This:
seems fairly solid.
I think this is what opposing racism can look like. Or standing to allow a child and parent to have connecting seats on the subway, which both subsidizes something I think is worthy of subsidy and helps set the social norm for future situations.
It seems like the non-involvement principle says I shouldn’t have done either of those things.
Ah, very good then. Clearly, we have insufficiently formalized what it means to be apolitical. I always assumed that it meant following the relevant social norms of whatever society one finds oneself in, avoiding political argument, and taking a carefully crafted “neutral-stance” on political issues.
I certainly agree that if the non-involvement principle recommends against exercising laudable virtues, then the principle is a bad one. However, I do not think anyone has in mind a principle which would forbid giving up one’s subway seat.
However, the non-involvement principle does seem to recommend against that particular method of opposing racism. If you consider this a flaw, that seems to be a perfectly coherent reason to reject the principle.
I think you are right that the racism example is better than the subway hypothetical.
Konkvistador’s use of the word political to only reference being active in the process of selecting public officials is quite conventional. For reasons based on feminist thought, I think this understanding artificially restricts the sorts of problems and approaches that can be addressed. In other words, I think the conventional definition is wrong, in that it doesn’t actually reference everything that it seems to be trying to reference. Thus, I prefer to say that “The personal is political.”
But the other issue I had with his original comment was that the OP was talking about having an open mind about ideology, not simply politics. To the extent that the OP was reconsidering his ideological commitments, I was to suggest that committing to some type of apolitical stance (either under my understanding or Konkvistador’s) was not necessarily optimal.
Yes. Life doesn’t come labelled “racism issue.” If you don’t think about what you’ll do in ambiguous situations ahead of time (which being apolitical suggests you shouldn’t), you won’t act. Getting things done isn’t often polite, as this comment notes.
A few comments up I linked to the wikipedia definition to formalize my usage:
I think I’m basically pretty much at antipathy. I have a negative and I think pretty justified attitude towards those trying to enthuse me for political affiliations as people trying to hijack my goals for their own purposes.
That is how I intended to use the word. Considering oneself neutral in the great tribal struggles of one’s time, aids one in having a better map of reality. It also helps to avoid hijacking by predatory memes.
I don’t know why anyone would choose to describe this as the primary use of the word “apolitical”.
Edit: I didn’t mean to imply you did.
I must confess, neither do I. I hope that I did not inadvertently imply that I endorse the antecedent of the conditional:
Edit: I did not mean to imply that I believed that you were implying that I did. I just wished to clarify, in order to negate the small-probability that such a miscommunication had occurred.
Non-invovlement with what exactly?
I have given a context (Politics) and we know much about this class of contexts. Taking an outside view getting emotionally involved in these generally produces one of the worst kinds of bias. “Political” actions generally amount to nothing but naked power struggles that rarely acheive “what it says on the label”.
An apolitical mind is a better mind was my original statement. If you consider everything to be “politics” then this statement would read “a goalless or inactive mind is a better mind”, to be truly goalless may indeed be impossible while having a working brain and to be fully inactive is to be irrational. Clearly one then dosen’t have a something that could be called a “better mind” in any sense (unless you are negative utilitarian—Do no ill!).
If my use of “politics”, dosen’t match your own specific usage feel free to replace it with bjarndorf or some such word of your choosing. A-bjandorfian minds are better minds. There.
All acts have moral consequences.