Downvoting/upvoting is how the community signals, in a low-bandwidth easily-aggregated distributed fashion, that certain things are desired by its members and other things aren’t.
As for how I feel about it personally… hm.
I expect that as the topics discussed on this forum become of more general interest to the Internet community, the forum will attract a membership that more closely resembles the Internet community. Personally, I consider that a net loss, but I don’t see a plausible Schelling point on this slippery slope that we’re already on anywhere nearby, so I expect the slide along that slope towards maximum accessibility to continue; I try not to argue with the weather.
That is, I consider the likely increased sense of affiliation to be an inadequate tradeoff for the likely increased noise, but I also think that ship sailed a long time ago. (If I had to mark a point, I’d say it was the inclusion of HP:MoR. The fact that without HP:MoR I myself would likely never have found LW is, I admit, ironic, but doesn’t change my conclusion… after all, it’s not clear to me that I add much of value to the site, even by my own standards.)
Sorry, I should have been clearer; I think it is disingenuous to downvote for that reason if there is no FAQ or guideline expressing the current instantiation of the community’s preferences for what is on- or off-topic.
I am all for using a numerical mechanism like voting to aggregate information, but it does come with a reputation cost for people who make the effort to create a post or pass on a link. So it does more than just signal what is liked or disliked; it also has a personal element that may discourage people from trying. If the expectations are clearly spelled out, then voting/downvoting is fine and can be interpreted against that informative backdrop.
Also, this sort of voting allows us to aggregate a coarse “yes” or “no” kind of preference about a post, but I think it would be pretty difficult to impute nuanced preferences, such as classifying topics and sub-topics as on-topic or off-topic, just by aggregating these votes. There’s no clear delineation of the “why” behind the vote, and that metadata is more important for understanding the squiggly, discontinuous boundary between “on-topic” and “off-topic”. Without the “why” metadata, we’re getting a workable, but very coarse, low-resolution, smoothed boundary between the two. I advocate that a FAQ or guidelines for downvoting is a low-cost method to raise the resolution of that boundary.
I agree that the signal being sent is coarse-grained.
I agree that finegraining it is a lovely thing for people to do if they can do it in a way that’s low-cost to everyone else.
I disagree with your implicit separation of signalling community (dis)approval on the one hand, and reputation costs on the other. The reputation in this case is precisely a function of community (dis)approval; I don’t see how you can sensibly separating them. If I endorse explicitly signalling community (dis)approval at all (which I do), I can’t help but endorse explicitly raising/lowering reputation.
My only concern with the FAQ approach is the question of what an individual voter whose reasons for (dis)approval don’t align with the FAQ ought to do. If I’m understanding you, your idea is that the FAQ trumps the actual preferences of people in the community—that is, I’m expected to vote in accordance with the FAQ rather than my own preferences. That makes the existence and contents of the FAQ an implicit power structure, and such things are best approached with caution.
I don’t understand the disagreement with splitting the reputation. For example, a really trivially easy way to do it would be like this: On every post, have a thumbs-up/thumbs-down vote button that is specific just to that post, and then have a separate thumbs-up/thumbs-down button that appears next to the name of the user who made the post.
If you just dislike that particular post because it is off-topic, but you think the poster had the intention that it was on-topic (you just dispute that they were correct in their intention), then just downvote the question and not the user. Then the user voting is a signal of an individual’s favor in the community and the post voting is a signal of the community’s preferences for topical content.
I’m not advocating that we go through the trouble of doing it that way, but it would be an easy way to decouple the second order effect by which a user can feel personally discouraged if a post he or she thought was relevant and interesting is not seen that way by others. Their reputation as a contributing member may remain unchanged; but that particular post is signaled as uninteresting/noisy.
I would like a FAQ that functions much the way the guidelines function at the Stack Exchange websites. Without any guidelines, downvotes are chaotic and lose meaning. If a typical user doesn’t like a post, but the reason for dislike is not covered by the FAQ, they can still write a comment, or make a post in one of the Stack Exchange meta sites (to argue constructively for getting their preference category into the FAQ/guidelines). These signal the information and successfully decouple it from what the community says it wants in the FAQ.
Why is it disingenuous?
Downvoting/upvoting is how the community signals, in a low-bandwidth easily-aggregated distributed fashion, that certain things are desired by its members and other things aren’t.
As for how I feel about it personally… hm.
I expect that as the topics discussed on this forum become of more general interest to the Internet community, the forum will attract a membership that more closely resembles the Internet community. Personally, I consider that a net loss, but I don’t see a plausible Schelling point on this slippery slope that we’re already on anywhere nearby, so I expect the slide along that slope towards maximum accessibility to continue; I try not to argue with the weather.
That is, I consider the likely increased sense of affiliation to be an inadequate tradeoff for the likely increased noise, but I also think that ship sailed a long time ago. (If I had to mark a point, I’d say it was the inclusion of HP:MoR. The fact that without HP:MoR I myself would likely never have found LW is, I admit, ironic, but doesn’t change my conclusion… after all, it’s not clear to me that I add much of value to the site, even by my own standards.)
Sorry, I should have been clearer; I think it is disingenuous to downvote for that reason if there is no FAQ or guideline expressing the current instantiation of the community’s preferences for what is on- or off-topic.
I am all for using a numerical mechanism like voting to aggregate information, but it does come with a reputation cost for people who make the effort to create a post or pass on a link. So it does more than just signal what is liked or disliked; it also has a personal element that may discourage people from trying. If the expectations are clearly spelled out, then voting/downvoting is fine and can be interpreted against that informative backdrop.
Also, this sort of voting allows us to aggregate a coarse “yes” or “no” kind of preference about a post, but I think it would be pretty difficult to impute nuanced preferences, such as classifying topics and sub-topics as on-topic or off-topic, just by aggregating these votes. There’s no clear delineation of the “why” behind the vote, and that metadata is more important for understanding the squiggly, discontinuous boundary between “on-topic” and “off-topic”. Without the “why” metadata, we’re getting a workable, but very coarse, low-resolution, smoothed boundary between the two. I advocate that a FAQ or guidelines for downvoting is a low-cost method to raise the resolution of that boundary.
I agree that the signal being sent is coarse-grained.
I agree that finegraining it is a lovely thing for people to do if they can do it in a way that’s low-cost to everyone else.
I disagree with your implicit separation of signalling community (dis)approval on the one hand, and reputation costs on the other. The reputation in this case is precisely a function of community (dis)approval; I don’t see how you can sensibly separating them. If I endorse explicitly signalling community (dis)approval at all (which I do), I can’t help but endorse explicitly raising/lowering reputation.
My only concern with the FAQ approach is the question of what an individual voter whose reasons for (dis)approval don’t align with the FAQ ought to do. If I’m understanding you, your idea is that the FAQ trumps the actual preferences of people in the community—that is, I’m expected to vote in accordance with the FAQ rather than my own preferences. That makes the existence and contents of the FAQ an implicit power structure, and such things are best approached with caution.
That said, I don’t object to it if so approached.
I don’t understand the disagreement with splitting the reputation. For example, a really trivially easy way to do it would be like this: On every post, have a thumbs-up/thumbs-down vote button that is specific just to that post, and then have a separate thumbs-up/thumbs-down button that appears next to the name of the user who made the post.
If you just dislike that particular post because it is off-topic, but you think the poster had the intention that it was on-topic (you just dispute that they were correct in their intention), then just downvote the question and not the user. Then the user voting is a signal of an individual’s favor in the community and the post voting is a signal of the community’s preferences for topical content.
I’m not advocating that we go through the trouble of doing it that way, but it would be an easy way to decouple the second order effect by which a user can feel personally discouraged if a post he or she thought was relevant and interesting is not seen that way by others. Their reputation as a contributing member may remain unchanged; but that particular post is signaled as uninteresting/noisy.
I would like a FAQ that functions much the way the guidelines function at the Stack Exchange websites. Without any guidelines, downvotes are chaotic and lose meaning. If a typical user doesn’t like a post, but the reason for dislike is not covered by the FAQ, they can still write a comment, or make a post in one of the Stack Exchange meta sites (to argue constructively for getting their preference category into the FAQ/guidelines). These signal the information and successfully decouple it from what the community says it wants in the FAQ.
Re: separating post-reputation from user-reputation...
(blink)
You’re right; I’m wrong.
Re: FAQ...
Ah, I see… documenting the most-likely-default but not treating it as an expectation.
Hm.
Yeah, I can see where that could work.