Incorrect demanding further proof for an idea with as many single points of failure as cryonics is logical and sensible. The ability to make a rational decision means you need sufficient evidence of a sufficient quality to make you conclusions. Eliminate some more single points of failure from cryonics then maybe.
You seem to be confusing matters. It might help to reread the essay about the particular proof demand. No one is arguing that more evidence wouldn’t be a very good thing. I have my own list of things that I’d like to see. No one is arguing that one can’t say “I want more evidence” or “A,B and C would convince me that this was worthwhile.” What is a problem is when one your claims is “I want a demonstration of complete revival.” And the problem with that is simple: no one is claiming that we are able to do that now or that we are anywhere near that capability. This would be as if we were discussing the possibility of eventually sending a very slow probe to Alpha Centauri fifty or a hundred years from now and one insisted that the only thing that mattered is whether you could see a working probe now. See the problem? One is making a demand for something which even if everything the tech proponent says is correct, they shouldn’t be able to produce.
Incorrect demanding further proof for an idea with as many single points of failure as cryonics is logical and sensible. The ability to make a rational decision means you need sufficient evidence of a sufficient quality to make you conclusions. Eliminate some more single points of failure from cryonics then maybe.
Ok. So what are the single points of failure you want eliminated? Why don’t you give a list of what you think the single points of failure are and then we can discuss whether those points are as severe as you think they are.
Moving on, you discuss the work with rat hippocampal material, you say:
This is very different then taking a dead brain and re-activating it. Just because the cells are viable doesn’t mean you can restart the neural processes once stopped. Not to mention there is a huge amount of work to prove that which could be derailed easily.
I’m not sure what you mean by the second sentence. The first sentence is interesting because we know that neural processes can be restarted. For example, rats and dogs can be deprived of oxygen and brought to hypothermic temperatures so that brain activity is close to zero and then brought back up with minimal problems. Neural structure is pretty robust. To use what may be a weak analogy, it functions much more like a CPU than like RAM. This is well understood.
One organ revived and implanted in a living organism is a long way from some 100 year old corpse popsicle being revived from the dead. One in no way implies the other. (For gods sake have you ever actually studied biology)
The length of time of preservation is not very relevant. We know that at liquid nitrogen temperatures the vast majority of chemical reactions become negligible. So the “100 year old” part isn’t relevant. I also don’t think that anyone is claiming that these successful studies with rabbits imply that cryonics will work. To be very explicitly Bayesian P(cryonics working|rabbit kidneys can successfully be vitrified and revived with negligible damage) is greater than P(cryonics working).
(For gods sake have you ever actually studied biology) In summary a swing and a miss from Roko.
It seems like you are personalizing this conversation unnecessarily. This does not help having an actual discussion where we each learn interesting things and come away with something useful. It is likely a major reason that you are getting voted down.
I have to wonder given your personal attacks above, and your apparent return to using the phrase “corpse popsicle” when even the simple “corpse” would get your point across, what are you attempting to accomplish? Are you trying to understand why some people here consider cryonics plausible or worth looking into? Are you trying to convince the individuals you are talking to that they shouldn’t engage in cryonics? Are you trying to convince people who are not posting but might read that they shouldn’t engage in cryonics? Are you trying to have an open exchange of ideas and information? It doesn’t seem like your strategy would succeed at any of those things. So what is your goal?
You seem to be confusing matters. It might help to reread the essay about the particular proof demand. No one is arguing that more evidence wouldn’t be a very good thing. I have my own list of things that I’d like to see. No one is arguing that one can’t say “I want more evidence” or “A,B and C would convince me that this was worthwhile.” What is a problem is when one your claims is “I want a demonstration of complete revival.” And the problem with that is simple: no one is claiming that we are able to do that now or that we are anywhere near that capability. This would be as if we were discussing the possibility of eventually sending a very slow probe to Alpha Centauri fifty or a hundred years from now and one insisted that the only thing that mattered is whether you could see a working probe now. See the problem? One is making a demand for something which even if everything the tech proponent says is correct, they shouldn’t be able to produce.
Ok. So what are the single points of failure you want eliminated? Why don’t you give a list of what you think the single points of failure are and then we can discuss whether those points are as severe as you think they are.
Moving on, you discuss the work with rat hippocampal material, you say:
I’m not sure what you mean by the second sentence. The first sentence is interesting because we know that neural processes can be restarted. For example, rats and dogs can be deprived of oxygen and brought to hypothermic temperatures so that brain activity is close to zero and then brought back up with minimal problems. Neural structure is pretty robust. To use what may be a weak analogy, it functions much more like a CPU than like RAM. This is well understood.
The length of time of preservation is not very relevant. We know that at liquid nitrogen temperatures the vast majority of chemical reactions become negligible. So the “100 year old” part isn’t relevant. I also don’t think that anyone is claiming that these successful studies with rabbits imply that cryonics will work. To be very explicitly Bayesian P(cryonics working|rabbit kidneys can successfully be vitrified and revived with negligible damage) is greater than P(cryonics working).
It seems like you are personalizing this conversation unnecessarily. This does not help having an actual discussion where we each learn interesting things and come away with something useful. It is likely a major reason that you are getting voted down.
I have to wonder given your personal attacks above, and your apparent return to using the phrase “corpse popsicle” when even the simple “corpse” would get your point across, what are you attempting to accomplish? Are you trying to understand why some people here consider cryonics plausible or worth looking into? Are you trying to convince the individuals you are talking to that they shouldn’t engage in cryonics? Are you trying to convince people who are not posting but might read that they shouldn’t engage in cryonics? Are you trying to have an open exchange of ideas and information? It doesn’t seem like your strategy would succeed at any of those things. So what is your goal?