Congratulations! Your employer and I have agreed to offer you a bonus week of paid vacation, complete with a personal assistant that handles all your affairs while you’re away at the world’s hottest new resort…Mac’s Wirehead Homestead.
Mac’s Wirehead Homestead is guaranteed to provide a week of pure bliss. No side effects, no addiction, no risks, just happiness.
I found it difficult to “feel” the no addiction and no risk things. If I spend a full week on pure bliss, is the rest of my life going to feel drab or painful by comparison? If you do something that makes you happy, you generally want more of that so if Mac’s Wirehead Homestead makes you perfectly happy for a week, aren’t you going to crave more of it?
The no addiction assumption is included to make clear that the “wanting” part of your brain will not be hijacked; you will only engage in wireheading after the vacation if you make a sober choice to do so. Wanting vs. Liking summarized here:
I voted yes, but largely because it will probably have very positive effects on my life after the vacation.
Here’s my somewhat related question:
I am offering you the possibility to take the world’s greatest year-long vacation. Pure enjoyment and happiness, no side effects or risks. However, when you’re finished I’m going to give you this pill here that will make you completely forget the entire thing, and will also completely remove any possible subconscious or physiological benefit you might have otherwise gotten from the vacation. For that matter, for all you know you may have already taken the vacation and the pill and you’ve just forgotten about it.
Don’t like that idea? Well, if you want an alternative I can give you a half-decent one day vacation instead. Not so great, no great life-changing experiences or lifelong memories, but at least you’ll probably enjoy it and you will remember it when you’re finished.
I picked the half-decent vacation because I assumed iarwain1 was talking about forgetting the great vacation immediately (i.e. within hours) after it’s over; if I had to take the pill several decades later I would have picked the great vacation.
(This means that how much an experience matters to me depends on how long I will remember it, rather than just on whether it ever happened at all and/or on whether I will remember it at t = +∞. Does this have some serious badly counterintuitive consequence that I’m missing?)
Many philosophies of life fall apart on the cosmic macro scale. Lets not move the goalpost into post-transhumanism, it is clear that is not what ZankerH is talking about.
The great vacation sounds to me like it ends with me being killed and another version of me being recognized. I realize that these issues of consciousness and continuity are far from settled, but at this point that’s my best guess. Incidentally, if anyone thinks there’s a solid argument explaining what does and doesn’t count as “me” and why, I’d be interested to hear it. Maybe there’s a way to dissolve the question?
In any event, I wasn’t able to easily choose between one or the other. Wireheading sounds pretty good to me.
Great vacation for me. I’m a happiness points maximizer.
Even in the worst case scenario described by Gavin, in which I’m killed at the end of the great vacation and a new me is recognized afterwards, I would still choose the great vacation—much more happiness is created.
I voted for the half-decent one, but then I started thinking about how many things I would be able to do during that awesome year and also deny wholly honestly later… Since obviously, you would have to include my preferences into your planning, to make the time truly great.
Ohh, the visions of daring and mercy… Come on, pay up!
I would vote no. One of the major benefits of going on a vacation is collecting memories to look back on later. If my vacation consisted only of wireheading, then when I was done, the memory of feeling bliss would be the only thing I gained. Instead of reminiscing “remember that time we went swimming at vacation spot?”, the only thing I would have is “remember that chemically induced feeling of pure bliss?”
This doesn’t seem like a useful experience to have gained; thinking about an actual event later on could bring back some of that happiness, but reminiscing about the platonic ideal of pure bliss doesn’t seem like a valuable use of my time, nor would it rekindle some of that feeling every time I remembered it. If it could, why don’t I just think about the feeling of pure bliss right now, and get the same effect without needing to go on the vacation?
Now if the vacation induced pure bliss by simulating an awesome adventure instead of just through chemical means, I would probably say yes. This would be the equivalent to going to see an paid week-long entertaining movie. I could relate this to other people, or think about how awesome it was at a later date and get back some of that feeling. But without an actual substantial memory to go with that feeling, I don’t think it would be valuable after it ended. This isn’t even considering the standard arguments against wireheading, which I tend to agree with.
As of this writing, 51% of voters (37 people) would go on the vacation. It is a bold claim to say they cannot be trusted with the decision. Why do you hold this position?
Considering the “no addiction” guarantee, it’s hard for me to see the downside. I like sleeping, and a vacation in which I could spend >10 hours/day sleeping sounds nice, but sleep doesn’t lead to friendship, or knowledge, or novelty, or any of that other stuff that people typically state that wireheading lacks. Since I don’t consider the happiness caused by sleeping to be bad or fake, there’s no real reason why I should reject wire-headed bliss as fake. (This is assuming that I don’t have important stuff to do, and wireheading isn’t dangerous to me.) The main reasons to reject it seem to be rejecting it as a permanent state.
I might be inclined to sample a few seconds of the wirehead machine, but only if it is clear (beyond whatever “guarantees” Mac offers) that people in fact do not find the experience, once sampled, irresistable. Beyond that, absolutely not.
I think I would start with one minute. With a precommitment that I will not try another minute during the next month; and a few people to observe me whether I have not lost interest in all non-wireheading activities—and if I do, they can vote on not allowing me to try another minute for the next year.
My intuition (which is unreliable, especially when talking about fictional stuff) is that one minute of any experience shouldn’t damage my brain permanently, but one day already sounds like too much.
No. What does a week of bliss give you? Nothing but a fond memory. (I’m assuming you don’t gain the mental regroup and recovery affect associated with vacations)
A week of bliss builds nothing, and a wirehead bliss does not improve yourself. You have learnt nothing from that week. As far as future prosperity goes it is the same as a week of work drudgery in which no growth happens.
“The primary thing when you take a sword in your hands is your intention to cut the enemy, whatever the means. Whenever you parry, hit, spring, strike or touch the enemy’s cutting sword, you must cut the enemy in the same movement. It is essential to attain this. If you think only of hitting, springing, striking or touching the enemy, you will not be able actually to cut him. More than anything, you must be thinking of carrying your movement through to cutting him.”
Miyamoto Musashi wrote, in The Book of Five Rings:
Musashi spoke of swordsmanship here, but this applies to any endeavor that aspires to excel. Like an electric train’s regenerative brakes charge its batteries, and the exhaust gas of a firearm chambers the next round and cocks the hammer, I expect even my down-time and indulgences to provide future prosperity.
Time is what life is made of, why squander it on something so temporary as a week’s bliss. Are you so content that you will delay improving your future for a week?
I think we could write a book about our fundamental disagreement, but I’ll just ask one question…
Let’s imagine a machine that improves any of your skills at twice your normal rate of improvement. All you have to do is think of what you want to improve, and then connect your brain to the machine. After one hour connected to the machine, it is as if you practiced that skill for two hours.
Unfortunately, the machine transmits the greatest amount of pain imaginable while it is in use—every inch of your body is a throbbing firecracker of agony.
That depends—does it have any other side effects, such as conditioning me against using the skill involved? Deliberate practice is hard, but this machine sounds quite convenient, and some skills that can be extremely useful can be not only inconvenient but also daunting or even dangerous to practice without such a machine.
Congratulations! Your employer and I have agreed to offer you a bonus week of paid vacation, complete with a personal assistant that handles all your affairs while you’re away at the world’s hottest new resort…Mac’s Wirehead Homestead.
Mac’s Wirehead Homestead is guaranteed to provide a week of pure bliss. No side effects, no addiction, no risks, just happiness.
So, can I sign you up for this free vacation?
[pollid:817]
I don’t know to what extend happiness without side effects makes sense.
I found it difficult to “feel” the no addiction and no risk things. If I spend a full week on pure bliss, is the rest of my life going to feel drab or painful by comparison? If you do something that makes you happy, you generally want more of that so if Mac’s Wirehead Homestead makes you perfectly happy for a week, aren’t you going to crave more of it?
The no addiction assumption is included to make clear that the “wanting” part of your brain will not be hijacked; you will only engage in wireheading after the vacation if you make a sober choice to do so. Wanting vs. Liking summarized here:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/4yq/the_neuroscience_of_pleasure/
I agree with your prediction that a person who chooses the vacation will most likely pursue wireheading when he/she returns home.
(Best sex ever + Best joke ever + Best meal ever + Best love ever +… Best whatever ever)^(3^^^3) for a week would make quite an impression.
I voted yes, but largely because it will probably have very positive effects on my life after the vacation.
Here’s my somewhat related question:
I am offering you the possibility to take the world’s greatest year-long vacation. Pure enjoyment and happiness, no side effects or risks. However, when you’re finished I’m going to give you this pill here that will make you completely forget the entire thing, and will also completely remove any possible subconscious or physiological benefit you might have otherwise gotten from the vacation. For that matter, for all you know you may have already taken the vacation and the pill and you’ve just forgotten about it.
Don’t like that idea? Well, if you want an alternative I can give you a half-decent one day vacation instead. Not so great, no great life-changing experiences or lifelong memories, but at least you’ll probably enjoy it and you will remember it when you’re finished.
Which do you prefer?
[pollid:818]
Even all else being equal, I’d prefer not to waste one year of my life on something I won’t even remember afterwards.
Doesn’t that describe all of life? Why waste years of your life on something you won’t even remember afterwards?
I picked the half-decent vacation because I assumed iarwain1 was talking about forgetting the great vacation immediately (i.e. within hours) after it’s over; if I had to take the pill several decades later I would have picked the great vacation.
(This means that how much an experience matters to me depends on how long I will remember it, rather than just on whether it ever happened at all and/or on whether I will remember it at t = +∞. Does this have some serious badly counterintuitive consequence that I’m missing?)
Many philosophies of life fall apart on the cosmic macro scale. Lets not move the goalpost into post-transhumanism, it is clear that is not what ZankerH is talking about.
What are you talking about? I don’t have a habit of losing memory after long-term activities, and I’m pretty sure that’s normal.
Death.
I think you’ll lose all your memories sometime in the relatively near future (say, less than 100 years).
The great vacation sounds to me like it ends with me being killed and another version of me being recognized. I realize that these issues of consciousness and continuity are far from settled, but at this point that’s my best guess. Incidentally, if anyone thinks there’s a solid argument explaining what does and doesn’t count as “me” and why, I’d be interested to hear it. Maybe there’s a way to dissolve the question?
In any event, I wasn’t able to easily choose between one or the other. Wireheading sounds pretty good to me.
Great vacation for me. I’m a happiness points maximizer.
Even in the worst case scenario described by Gavin, in which I’m killed at the end of the great vacation and a new me is recognized afterwards, I would still choose the great vacation—much more happiness is created.
Very interesting results to this poll.
Edit: Grammar
I voted for the half-decent one, but then I started thinking about how many things I would be able to do during that awesome year and also deny wholly honestly later… Since obviously, you would have to include my preferences into your planning, to make the time truly great.
Ohh, the visions of daring and mercy… Come on, pay up!
Really? I voted no, because I couldn’t think of any positive effects on my life after the vacation. What did you have in mind?
I want to say no purely because of my default suspicion of anyone offering me a free vacation.
Nah. Bliss sans content doesn’t seem fun or interesting.
I would vote no. One of the major benefits of going on a vacation is collecting memories to look back on later. If my vacation consisted only of wireheading, then when I was done, the memory of feeling bliss would be the only thing I gained. Instead of reminiscing “remember that time we went swimming at vacation spot?”, the only thing I would have is “remember that chemically induced feeling of pure bliss?”
This doesn’t seem like a useful experience to have gained; thinking about an actual event later on could bring back some of that happiness, but reminiscing about the platonic ideal of pure bliss doesn’t seem like a valuable use of my time, nor would it rekindle some of that feeling every time I remembered it. If it could, why don’t I just think about the feeling of pure bliss right now, and get the same effect without needing to go on the vacation?
Now if the vacation induced pure bliss by simulating an awesome adventure instead of just through chemical means, I would probably say yes. This would be the equivalent to going to see an paid week-long entertaining movie. I could relate this to other people, or think about how awesome it was at a later date and get back some of that feeling. But without an actual substantial memory to go with that feeling, I don’t think it would be valuable after it ended. This isn’t even considering the standard arguments against wireheading, which I tend to agree with.
I agree that good memories are a component of what makes a vacation good, but so is the joy you get from the vacation itself.
I tried that. It has some effect.
I still wouldn’t go on that vacation, no. Actually, I would probably try to outlaw it. :)
As of this writing, 51% of voters (37 people) would go on the vacation. It is a bold claim to say they cannot be trusted with the decision. Why do you hold this position?
Considering the “no addiction” guarantee, it’s hard for me to see the downside. I like sleeping, and a vacation in which I could spend >10 hours/day sleeping sounds nice, but sleep doesn’t lead to friendship, or knowledge, or novelty, or any of that other stuff that people typically state that wireheading lacks. Since I don’t consider the happiness caused by sleeping to be bad or fake, there’s no real reason why I should reject wire-headed bliss as fake. (This is assuming that I don’t have important stuff to do, and wireheading isn’t dangerous to me.) The main reasons to reject it seem to be rejecting it as a permanent state.
I might be inclined to sample a few seconds of the wirehead machine, but only if it is clear (beyond whatever “guarantees” Mac offers) that people in fact do not find the experience, once sampled, irresistable. Beyond that, absolutely not.
A week, sure. Two weeks, maybe. A month, I could be convinced. A year, no thanks.
I think I would start with one minute. With a precommitment that I will not try another minute during the next month; and a few people to observe me whether I have not lost interest in all non-wireheading activities—and if I do, they can vote on not allowing me to try another minute for the next year.
My intuition (which is unreliable, especially when talking about fictional stuff) is that one minute of any experience shouldn’t damage my brain permanently, but one day already sounds like too much.
No. What does a week of bliss give you? Nothing but a fond memory. (I’m assuming you don’t gain the mental regroup and recovery affect associated with vacations)
A week of bliss builds nothing, and a wirehead bliss does not improve yourself. You have learnt nothing from that week. As far as future prosperity goes it is the same as a week of work drudgery in which no growth happens.
Agreed, you would not be more capable after the vacation. Your prospects would not improve.
But surely, you must indulge yourself occasionally and Mac’s Wirehead Homestead seems like the best place for that.
Musashi spoke of swordsmanship here, but this applies to any endeavor that aspires to excel. Like an electric train’s regenerative brakes charge its batteries, and the exhaust gas of a firearm chambers the next round and cocks the hammer, I expect even my down-time and indulgences to provide future prosperity.
Time is what life is made of, why squander it on something so temporary as a week’s bliss. Are you so content that you will delay improving your future for a week?
I think we could write a book about our fundamental disagreement, but I’ll just ask one question…
Let’s imagine a machine that improves any of your skills at twice your normal rate of improvement. All you have to do is think of what you want to improve, and then connect your brain to the machine. After one hour connected to the machine, it is as if you practiced that skill for two hours.
Unfortunately, the machine transmits the greatest amount of pain imaginable while it is in use—every inch of your body is a throbbing firecracker of agony.
Would you ever use this machine?
Yes, as much I could tolerate it.
But yes, we have a fundamental difference of perspectives here.
That depends—does it have any other side effects, such as conditioning me against using the skill involved? Deliberate practice is hard, but this machine sounds quite convenient, and some skills that can be extremely useful can be not only inconvenient but also daunting or even dangerous to practice without such a machine.
Lacks a neutral option in the pool. Having a neutral option is quite useful to get good data, where some people don’t want to decide.