This is an example of those beliefs lying outside the range they find credible, which I addressed in the next point.
Sure. I was just making the point that you can’t get from “X could be relevant to Y, which Z finds important” to “Z should be interested in X”.
the NRx’s (or at least the HBD-people) can present arguments for their beliefs
I don’t know about actual literal Cthulhu-worshippers, if any there be, but the preachers of pending apocalypse have arguments for their beliefs too. And, again, I think you may be misunderstanding the point I was making, which is simply that you can’t get from “Z has good arguments against X” to “Z will present arguments against X whenever someone comes along proclaiming X”, and therefore you can’t get from “X came up and Z blew it off without presenting counterarguments” to “Z doesn’t have good arguments against X”.
in an attempt to
This is far from the first time that you have claimed to know my motives. I’m sorry to inform you that your track record on getting them right appears to me to be very poor.
In this case “heat” means [...]
It was I, not you, who made the more-heat-than-light metaphor in this case, and you don’t get to tell me what I meant by it. I did not, in fact, mean “bad arguments or no arguments at all”; I meant “rudeness and crossness and people getting upset at one another”.
As for taking it too literally: no, I am observing that the metaphor happens to correspond to reality in a possibly-unexpected way. “Heat” in an argument really does come from “friction” between people, from them “rubbing one another up the wrong way”.
(Incidentally, it feels very odd to be criticized for doing that by an admirer of Chesterton, who did the same thing all the time. (More stylishly than me, no doubt, but if writing as well as Chesterton were a requirement for participation here it would be a quiet place indeed.)
why the topic shouldn’t be brought up at all
I think the problem many people have isn’t that it’s “brought up at all” but that some of those who want to talk about NRx and HBD seem to want to talk about those things all the time. That may mean that the only actually-achievable options are (1) a strict “no talking about this stuff” policy and (2) having every discussion to which race, gender, drawbacks of democracy, etc., could possibly be relevant being full of (neo-)reactionary stuff. Those both seem like bad outcomes, and if we end up with bad outcome #1 I wouldn’t want to blame whoever chooses #1 over #2 for its badness, because #2 is bad too.
It was I, not you, who made the more-heat-than-light metaphor in this case, and you don’t get to tell me what I meant by it.
Yes, I have a habit of assuming the most sensible interpretation of what my interlocutor says, it appears to be a bad habit with some people.
I meant “rudeness and crossness and people getting upset at one another”.
Ok, plugging that definition into your argument, and removing the metaphor, your argument appears to come down to “arguing ‘NRx-type’ positions gets makes my side upset therefore the ‘NRx’ side should stop doing it”.
That is pretty much the reverse of what you have been doing.
I think your actual habit is of assuming the interpretation that makes most sense to you. Unfortunately that isn’t the same, and in particular it gives very wrong results when your mental model of your interlocutors is very inaccurate.
your argument appears to come down to “arguing ‘NRx-type’ positions gets makes my side upset therefore the ‘NRx’ side should stop doing it”.
Not quite. (Though, as entirelyuseless says, that wouldn’t in fact be such a bad argument.) Here’s a link to where I came in; as you can see, I was explaining how having NRx discussions tend to proliferate could be a problem. My answer was that I didn’t know whether it actually is, but it could be so in a situation where (1) there are very few NRx’s (but vocal enough to have a lot of impact) and (2) most of the other people aren’t interested in NRx discussions. And then we got into a lengthy discussion of why #2 might be; rudeness-and-crossness was one of many possibilities.
So the argument is: in this hypothetical situation that may or may not be actual, most LWers don’t want to have a lot of NRx discussions. One of the many possible reasons is (as you put it) that these arguments get their side upset. Since (in this hypothetical situation) most LWers don’t want these discussions, and very few actively do want them, LWers as a whole would be happier without them.
(Although I’ve adopted your spin-laden language in the paragraph above, I would like to point out that it’s actually quite far from what I meant. My hypothetical person-who-doesn’t-want-to-talk-about-NRx is concerned not only that his allies might get upset, but also that his opponents might; and that the result of all this getting-upset on both sides is likely to be that no one learns much from anyone else. That’s why the metaphor is “more heat than light” and not just “lots of heat”.)
Assuming that was his argument, it seems like a pretty good one. You do not persuade people by making them upset. You make them more convinced than ever of their original position.
Sure. I was just making the point that you can’t get from “X could be relevant to Y, which Z finds important” to “Z should be interested in X”.
I don’t know about actual literal Cthulhu-worshippers, if any there be, but the preachers of pending apocalypse have arguments for their beliefs too. And, again, I think you may be misunderstanding the point I was making, which is simply that you can’t get from “Z has good arguments against X” to “Z will present arguments against X whenever someone comes along proclaiming X”, and therefore you can’t get from “X came up and Z blew it off without presenting counterarguments” to “Z doesn’t have good arguments against X”.
This is far from the first time that you have claimed to know my motives. I’m sorry to inform you that your track record on getting them right appears to me to be very poor.
It was I, not you, who made the more-heat-than-light metaphor in this case, and you don’t get to tell me what I meant by it. I did not, in fact, mean “bad arguments or no arguments at all”; I meant “rudeness and crossness and people getting upset at one another”.
As for taking it too literally: no, I am observing that the metaphor happens to correspond to reality in a possibly-unexpected way. “Heat” in an argument really does come from “friction” between people, from them “rubbing one another up the wrong way”.
(Incidentally, it feels very odd to be criticized for doing that by an admirer of Chesterton, who did the same thing all the time. (More stylishly than me, no doubt, but if writing as well as Chesterton were a requirement for participation here it would be a quiet place indeed.)
I think the problem many people have isn’t that it’s “brought up at all” but that some of those who want to talk about NRx and HBD seem to want to talk about those things all the time. That may mean that the only actually-achievable options are (1) a strict “no talking about this stuff” policy and (2) having every discussion to which race, gender, drawbacks of democracy, etc., could possibly be relevant being full of (neo-)reactionary stuff. Those both seem like bad outcomes, and if we end up with bad outcome #1 I wouldn’t want to blame whoever chooses #1 over #2 for its badness, because #2 is bad too.
Yes, I have a habit of assuming the most sensible interpretation of what my interlocutor says, it appears to be a bad habit with some people.
Ok, plugging that definition into your argument, and removing the metaphor, your argument appears to come down to “arguing ‘NRx-type’ positions gets makes my side upset therefore the ‘NRx’ side should stop doing it”.
That is pretty much the reverse of what you have been doing.
I think your actual habit is of assuming the interpretation that makes most sense to you. Unfortunately that isn’t the same, and in particular it gives very wrong results when your mental model of your interlocutors is very inaccurate.
Not quite. (Though, as entirelyuseless says, that wouldn’t in fact be such a bad argument.) Here’s a link to where I came in; as you can see, I was explaining how having NRx discussions tend to proliferate could be a problem. My answer was that I didn’t know whether it actually is, but it could be so in a situation where (1) there are very few NRx’s (but vocal enough to have a lot of impact) and (2) most of the other people aren’t interested in NRx discussions. And then we got into a lengthy discussion of why #2 might be; rudeness-and-crossness was one of many possibilities.
So the argument is: in this hypothetical situation that may or may not be actual, most LWers don’t want to have a lot of NRx discussions. One of the many possible reasons is (as you put it) that these arguments get their side upset. Since (in this hypothetical situation) most LWers don’t want these discussions, and very few actively do want them, LWers as a whole would be happier without them.
(Although I’ve adopted your spin-laden language in the paragraph above, I would like to point out that it’s actually quite far from what I meant. My hypothetical person-who-doesn’t-want-to-talk-about-NRx is concerned not only that his allies might get upset, but also that his opponents might; and that the result of all this getting-upset on both sides is likely to be that no one learns much from anyone else. That’s why the metaphor is “more heat than light” and not just “lots of heat”.)
Assuming that was his argument, it seems like a pretty good one. You do not persuade people by making them upset. You make them more convinced than ever of their original position.