Not sure what you mean by “primitive” here. If we assume that a human can be simulated, i.e. described as an algorithm, then there would be a sequence of state transitions or something like it that corresponds to a perception of a certain quale. These sequences are likely to be generalizable to “qualia sequences”. Further, most humans and probably other animals, when modeled, would exhibit these sequences. In that sense qualia exist, as a model that accurately describes observations like “I see color red”.
I was reading it as “primitive notion” appears in geometry. One doesn’t explain what a “point” is while in general geometrical results require proofs. And this not because one is being sloppy about “points” but that it’s fundamentally hard to have a conception without such primitive notions.
To me, a primitive notion is something that doesn’t need further defining—you can just point to an example and people will know from that example what you mean. If people don’t know what you mean from an example, then it doesn’t seem to work as a primitive notion.
There’s something like that to qualia, in that you can give examples of subjective experience, and people will know what you mean. But your post was arguing against people who were saying that qualia don’t exist. In that context, using the primitive sense of qualia seems insufficient, since you are taking something whose existence seems self-evident from our experience, and start talking about whether or not it exists. That makes me think that you must mean something else than the primitive notion, since I don’t understand how there could be a dispute about the existence of the primitive notion.
To use the analogy to points, suppose that someone had written a post saying “there are people who argue that points in geometry do not really exist, but I will now present arguments that they do exist”. The existence of points as a primitive notion seems self-evident to me: after all, I can draw a point, do geometry using the primitive notion of points, etc. So I assume that the post must be talking about something else than the primitive notion or using some more technical definition of “exist” or something; otherwise there would be no need to argue for the existence of points, nor could their existence to be disputed.
To discuss the existence of points as something which is up to debate, seems to already presuppose that they are not a primitive notion. Likewise, if you say that “by qualia, I mean qualia as the primitive notion”, that doesn’t seem useful in clarifying what your post is talking about, since it already seems self-evident to me that qualia as a primitive notion exist. So it feels like any dispute about their existence has to define them as something else than the primitive notion.
Some things really are primitive notions. And for each primitive notion there will be *someone* who will deny its existence. Your claim seems to be that if I argue against them claiming that it actually does exist then I concede that it’s not a primitive. That doesn’t seem like a very good argument.
One could certainly debate the existence of say points, without disputing that they are a primitive notion. For instance, one could argue that points are a contradictory concept since they have an area of zero, but that each point that we can physically draw always has some area. Someone could then present a counterargument to that. Neither of those arguments would dispute points being a primitive notion.
Rather my argument is that if you are discussing the existence of a primitive notion, you have to explain what it would mean for it to not exist. Otherwise it is hard to understand what the debate is about, since naively, points/qualia seem to self-evidently exist.
You said “That wasn’t what I meant”—and yet you wrote “if people don’t know what you mean from an example, then it doesn’t seem to work as a primitive notion” and “to discuss the existence of points as something which is up to debate, seems to already presuppose that they are not a primitive notion” and “otherwise there would be no need to argue for the existence of points, nor could their existence to be disputed”. So I don’t know how that could possibly not be what you meant?
Anyway, dealing with your argument in this comment, someone could claim points aren’t primitive because they are the intersection of lines and someone else could claim lines aren’t primitive as they are made up of points. According to your reasoning, neither can be primitive by mere fact of disputation. That doesn’t seem very convincing.
“Rather my argument is that if you are discussing the existence of a primitive notion, you have to explain what it would mean for it to not exist”—So what does it mean for a point not to exist? What would it mean for matter not to exist or logic not to exist.
You can have lines as primitives, and derive points as their intersections. There isn’t a single unequivocal definition of “primitve” in maths, a fortiori there isn’t one anywhere else.
Not sure what you mean by “primitive” here. If we assume that a human can be simulated, i.e. described as an algorithm, then there would be a sequence of state transitions or something like it that corresponds to a perception of a certain quale. These sequences are likely to be generalizable to “qualia sequences”. Further, most humans and probably other animals, when modeled, would exhibit these sequences. In that sense qualia exist, as a model that accurately describes observations like “I see color red”.
I was reading it as “primitive notion” appears in geometry. One doesn’t explain what a “point” is while in general geometrical results require proofs. And this not because one is being sloppy about “points” but that it’s fundamentally hard to have a conception without such primitive notions.
Right, I assumed as much. Postulating qualia as a primitive notion strikes me as not very useful though.
Why doesn’t it strike you as useful?
To me, a primitive notion is something that doesn’t need further defining—you can just point to an example and people will know from that example what you mean. If people don’t know what you mean from an example, then it doesn’t seem to work as a primitive notion.
There’s something like that to qualia, in that you can give examples of subjective experience, and people will know what you mean. But your post was arguing against people who were saying that qualia don’t exist. In that context, using the primitive sense of qualia seems insufficient, since you are taking something whose existence seems self-evident from our experience, and start talking about whether or not it exists. That makes me think that you must mean something else than the primitive notion, since I don’t understand how there could be a dispute about the existence of the primitive notion.
To use the analogy to points, suppose that someone had written a post saying “there are people who argue that points in geometry do not really exist, but I will now present arguments that they do exist”. The existence of points as a primitive notion seems self-evident to me: after all, I can draw a point, do geometry using the primitive notion of points, etc. So I assume that the post must be talking about something else than the primitive notion or using some more technical definition of “exist” or something; otherwise there would be no need to argue for the existence of points, nor could their existence to be disputed.
To discuss the existence of points as something which is up to debate, seems to already presuppose that they are not a primitive notion. Likewise, if you say that “by qualia, I mean qualia as the primitive notion”, that doesn’t seem useful in clarifying what your post is talking about, since it already seems self-evident to me that qualia as a primitive notion exist. So it feels like any dispute about their existence has to define them as something else than the primitive notion.
Some things really are primitive notions. And for each primitive notion there will be *someone* who will deny its existence. Your claim seems to be that if I argue against them claiming that it actually does exist then I concede that it’s not a primitive. That doesn’t seem like a very good argument.
That wasn’t what I meant.
One could certainly debate the existence of say points, without disputing that they are a primitive notion. For instance, one could argue that points are a contradictory concept since they have an area of zero, but that each point that we can physically draw always has some area. Someone could then present a counterargument to that. Neither of those arguments would dispute points being a primitive notion.
Rather my argument is that if you are discussing the existence of a primitive notion, you have to explain what it would mean for it to not exist. Otherwise it is hard to understand what the debate is about, since naively, points/qualia seem to self-evidently exist.
You said “That wasn’t what I meant”—and yet you wrote “if people don’t know what you mean from an example, then it doesn’t seem to work as a primitive notion” and “to discuss the existence of points as something which is up to debate, seems to already presuppose that they are not a primitive notion” and “otherwise there would be no need to argue for the existence of points, nor could their existence to be disputed”. So I don’t know how that could possibly not be what you meant?
Anyway, dealing with your argument in this comment, someone could claim points aren’t primitive because they are the intersection of lines and someone else could claim lines aren’t primitive as they are made up of points. According to your reasoning, neither can be primitive by mere fact of disputation. That doesn’t seem very convincing.
“Rather my argument is that if you are discussing the existence of a primitive notion, you have to explain what it would mean for it to not exist”—So what does it mean for a point not to exist? What would it mean for matter not to exist or logic not to exist.
You can have lines as primitives, and derive points as their intersections. There isn’t a single unequivocal definition of “primitve” in maths, a fortiori there isn’t one anywhere else.
You can take lines as primitive, and define points as their intersections. There isnt a single definition of “primitive”.
Exactly