As I already wrote, the above is not my actual value system, but rather a streamlined version of it. My actual value system does incorporate survival instinct. You intend to show with quantum planetary suicide that the streamlined value system leads to nonsensical results. I don’t really find the results nonsensical. In this sense, I would bite the bullet.
Actually, I wouldn’t, but for a reason not directly related to our current discussion. I don’t have too much faith in the literal truth of the MWI. I am quite confused about quantum mechanics, but I have a gut feeling that single-world is not totally out of the question, and not-every-world is quite likely. This is because as a compatibilist, I am willing to bite some bullets about free will most others will not bite. I believe that the full space-time continuum is very finely tuned in every direction (*), so it is totally plausible to me that some of those many worlds are simply locked from us by fine-tuning. There are already some crankish attempts in this direction under the name superdeterminism. I don’t think these are successful so far, but I surely would not bet my whole planet against the possibility.
(*) This sentence might sound fuzzy or even pseudo-science. All I have is an analogy to make it more concrete: Our world is not a Gold Universe, but I am talking about the sort of fine-tuning found in a Gold Universe.
You intend to show with quantum planetary suicide that the streamlined value system leads to nonsensical results.
Not nonsensical, no. It would be not liking the idea of planetary suicide that would be nonsensical, given your other expressed preferences. I can even see a perverse logic behind your way of carving which parts of the universal wavefunction you care about, based on the kind of understanding you express of QM.
Just… if you are ever exposed to accessible quantum randomness then please stay away from anyone I care about. These values are, by my way of looking at things, exactly as insane as those parents who kill their children and spouse before offing themselves as well. I’m not saying you are evil or anything. It’s not like you are really going to act on any of this so you fall under Mostly Harmless. But the step from mostly killing yourself to evaluating it as preferable for other people to be dead too takes things from none of my business to threat to human life.
Strange as may seem we are talking about the real world here!
wedrifid, please don’t use me as a straw-man. I already told you that my actual value system does contain survival instinct, and I already told you why I omitted it here anyway. Here it is, spelled out even more clearly:
You wanted a clean value system that decides against quantum suicide. (I use ‘clean’ as a synonym of nonarbritrary, low-complexity, aesthetically pleasing.) I proposed a clean value system that is already strong enough to decide against many forms of quantum suicide. You correctly point out that it is not immune against every form.
Incorporating any version of survival instinct makes the value system immune to quantum suicide by definition. I claimed that any value system incorporating survival instincts is necessarily not clean, at least if it has to consistently deal with issues of quantum lottery, mind uploads and such. I don’t have a problem with that, and I choose survival over cleanness. And don’t worry for my children and spouse. I will spell it out very explicitly, just in case: I don’t value the wishes of dead people, because they don’t have any. I value the wishes of living people, most importantly their wish to stay alive.
You completely ignored the physics angle to concentrate on the ethics angle. I think the former is more interesting, and frankly, I am more interested in your clever insights there. I already mentioned that I don’t have too much faith in MWI. Let me add some more detail to this. I believe that if you want to find out the real reason why quantum suicide is a bad idea, you will have to look at physics rather than values. My common sense tells me that if I put a (quantum or other) gun in my mouth right now, and pull the trigger many times, then the next thing I will feel is not that I am very lucky. Rather, I will not feel anything at all because I will be dead. I am quite sure about this instinct, and let us assume for a minute that it is indeed correct. This can mean two things. One possible conclusion is that MWI must be wrong. Another possible conclusion is that MWI is right but we make some error when we try to apply MWI to this situation. I give high probability to both of this possibilities, and I am very interested in any new insights.
Let me now summarize my position on quantum suicide: I endorse it
IF MWI is literally correct. (I don’t believe so.)
IF the interface between MWI and consciousness works as our naive interpretation suggests. (I don’t believe so.)
IF the quantum suicide is planetary, more exactly, if it affects a system that is value-wise isolated from the rest of the universe. (Very hard or impossible to achieve.)
IF survival instinct as a preference of others is taken into account, more concretely, if your mental image of me, the Mad Scientist with the Doomsday Machine, gets the consent of the whole population of the planet. (Very hard or impossible to achieve.)
As I already wrote, the above is not my actual value system, but rather a streamlined version of it. My actual value system does incorporate survival instinct. You intend to show with quantum planetary suicide that the streamlined value system leads to nonsensical results. I don’t really find the results nonsensical. In this sense, I would bite the bullet.
Actually, I wouldn’t, but for a reason not directly related to our current discussion. I don’t have too much faith in the literal truth of the MWI. I am quite confused about quantum mechanics, but I have a gut feeling that single-world is not totally out of the question, and not-every-world is quite likely. This is because as a compatibilist, I am willing to bite some bullets about free will most others will not bite. I believe that the full space-time continuum is very finely tuned in every direction (*), so it is totally plausible to me that some of those many worlds are simply locked from us by fine-tuning. There are already some crankish attempts in this direction under the name superdeterminism. I don’t think these are successful so far, but I surely would not bet my whole planet against the possibility.
(*) This sentence might sound fuzzy or even pseudo-science. All I have is an analogy to make it more concrete: Our world is not a Gold Universe, but I am talking about the sort of fine-tuning found in a Gold Universe.
Not nonsensical, no. It would be not liking the idea of planetary suicide that would be nonsensical, given your other expressed preferences. I can even see a perverse logic behind your way of carving which parts of the universal wavefunction you care about, based on the kind of understanding you express of QM.
Just… if you are ever exposed to accessible quantum randomness then please stay away from anyone I care about. These values are, by my way of looking at things, exactly as insane as those parents who kill their children and spouse before offing themselves as well. I’m not saying you are evil or anything. It’s not like you are really going to act on any of this so you fall under Mostly Harmless. But the step from mostly killing yourself to evaluating it as preferable for other people to be dead too takes things from none of my business to threat to human life.
Strange as may seem we are talking about the real world here!
wedrifid, please don’t use me as a straw-man. I already told you that my actual value system does contain survival instinct, and I already told you why I omitted it here anyway. Here it is, spelled out even more clearly:
You wanted a clean value system that decides against quantum suicide. (I use ‘clean’ as a synonym of nonarbritrary, low-complexity, aesthetically pleasing.) I proposed a clean value system that is already strong enough to decide against many forms of quantum suicide. You correctly point out that it is not immune against every form.
Incorporating any version of survival instinct makes the value system immune to quantum suicide by definition. I claimed that any value system incorporating survival instincts is necessarily not clean, at least if it has to consistently deal with issues of quantum lottery, mind uploads and such. I don’t have a problem with that, and I choose survival over cleanness. And don’t worry for my children and spouse. I will spell it out very explicitly, just in case: I don’t value the wishes of dead people, because they don’t have any. I value the wishes of living people, most importantly their wish to stay alive.
You completely ignored the physics angle to concentrate on the ethics angle. I think the former is more interesting, and frankly, I am more interested in your clever insights there. I already mentioned that I don’t have too much faith in MWI. Let me add some more detail to this. I believe that if you want to find out the real reason why quantum suicide is a bad idea, you will have to look at physics rather than values. My common sense tells me that if I put a (quantum or other) gun in my mouth right now, and pull the trigger many times, then the next thing I will feel is not that I am very lucky. Rather, I will not feel anything at all because I will be dead. I am quite sure about this instinct, and let us assume for a minute that it is indeed correct. This can mean two things. One possible conclusion is that MWI must be wrong. Another possible conclusion is that MWI is right but we make some error when we try to apply MWI to this situation. I give high probability to both of this possibilities, and I am very interested in any new insights.
Let me now summarize my position on quantum suicide: I endorse it
IF MWI is literally correct. (I don’t believe so.)
IF the interface between MWI and consciousness works as our naive interpretation suggests. (I don’t believe so.)
IF the quantum suicide is planetary, more exactly, if it affects a system that is value-wise isolated from the rest of the universe. (Very hard or impossible to achieve.)
IF survival instinct as a preference of others is taken into account, more concretely, if your mental image of me, the Mad Scientist with the Doomsday Machine, gets the consent of the whole population of the planet. (Very hard or impossible to achieve.)
End of conversation. I did not read beyond that sentence.
I am sorry to hear this, and I don’t really understand it.