Welcome to the site! We are glad to have you. But let me tell you a story:
A man goes to the mayor, asking to remove a fence on public property. He gives reason after reason why the fence should not exist, and how much better life will be once the fence is gone. The mayor listens closely, nodding in agreement, and the man finishes his argument. The mayor pauses for a moment, then asks, “Who put the fence there, and why?” The man waves his hand in dismissal: “I don’t know and I don’t care.” The mayor frowns, replying, “Until you know why that fence exists, I can’t let you tear it down.”
Moving from the story to advice: reading all of this sequence may be helpful. Around a year ago, I mostly gave up discussing politics after finding Less Wrong, and my life is noticeably better. It’s hard to elaborate all of the reasons why- but to start, I find myself less bothered by other people and the world, I find my time much better spent, as I’m reading positive psychology rather than political philosophy, and putting my hope in start-ups rather than political parties.
Instead of testing to see if politics can be discussed on Less Wrong, I suggest an alternate test: see how long you can go without having a political discussion. See what you do with your time and emotional energy instead.
[Meta] I’ve gone long periods of time without having political discussions. My interest in such waxes and wanes, much as my interest in writing poetry, my interest in writing prose, my interest in programming games, my interest in having any contact with other people, etc. I wouldn’t say my life at any point in any of these cycles is better or worse; if it were better, I doubt my interest would wane, if worse, I doubt it would wax.
As for my reasons for introducing this test, it was introduced in response to another individual calling the rule “Stupid,” in rather less polite terms. I decided to create a test to see if the fence was actually useful; I didn’t create an article calling for it to be torn down, I asked the mayor to create a space in that public property without that fence, to see if it did indeed serve the purpose it was erected for. I’ll “conclude” the test sometime tomorrow, and ask people whether, indeed, they found the discussions here constructive or informative. (I’ve already learned one thing, which I’ll elaborate on tomorrow, in my closing poll and commentary. So personally it has already been both constructive and informative.)
I read this response as two distinct things—a reason for not wanting politics discussed here (politics is an unconstructive and unhappy temptation), and a completely unrelated justification (politics is impossible to discuss rationally, a strawman interpretation of the “Politics is the Mindkiller” sequence which some people here nonetheless seem to hold). This post challenges that justification. Your reason may or may not still apply; I will try to include something in the poll to reflect the possibility that people found the test demonstrated that politics can be discussed here, but would still rather this be a politics-free zone.
My strongest recommendations, depending upon the result of this test and the poll, will nonetheless be, as suggested by DanielLC here: http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/dsv/is_politics_the_mindkiller_an_inconclusive_test/73sl a regular and quarantined area for political discussion, subject to a cessation if things turn ugly or particularly unproductive. As I invoked in my introductory post, this is not a true test, because it is a test, and known to be a test. The very act of entering into this test is an acknowledgment that politics are an area of rational vulnerability. That is, my strongest recommendation will be that an area of public property be left without the fence. That will be a longer-term test which will more truly demonstrate whether or not the fence effectively serves the purpose it was created for.
I’ve gone through the same sort of alienation and apathy about politics from reading lesswrong and moldbug, but that actually makes it more FUN for me to discuss politics now that I no longer identify as a blue. The separate discussion as to how much fun conversation there should be on the forums could be interesting, but I would enjoy more of it and I think it’s also somewhat useful to see non-blue and non-green political points made.
My experiences mirror yours. Without delving into the details, I’ve also given up politics. Doing so has allowed me to focus my energy into activities that make me happier and improve my well-being
I do periodically feel the urge to re-involve myself in politics, though. Addiction is too strong of a word, but maybe it’s compulsion? Sometimes I push through it, ignoring it until in goes away. But other times I re-involve myself. It usually lasts a few days, at least until I realize how miserable it’s making me and I pull myself away.
Regardless of whether politics can/should be discussed on LW, I likely shouldn’t involve myself. Let this be my public per-commitment that I won’t discuss politics on LW.
Also, Vaniver, I enjoy your posts. If you’d ever care to discuss positive psychology, I’d definitely be up for a Skype chat.
Agreed. I have not bothered to inform myself about politics since I was in grade school. I have never followed mainstream news (TV/newspapers/etc), not even occasionally. And my life is much richer for it. I have more time for other pursuits, I’m not angry about things I can’t affect, and I’m not alienated from people with different a political allegiance.
There have been times when I honestly didn’t know who the prime minister of my state was. (I happened to have heard the name of the current one some time ago.) And I’m happy that way. There are so many much more interesting things in the world I can spend my time on! Why should I concern myself with what I would do if I were prime minister? It’s more fun and just as profitable to think of what I would do if I were Superman.
That analogy conflates two things: The fact that the man doesn’t know why the fence is there, and the fact that he doesn’t care. If I were the mayor, I’d dismiss his request simply because he hadn’t done his research. This is not analogous to tearing down laws or social norms so old and complicated that no one could reasonably be expected to know why they were made in the first place. Maybe laws against homosexuality made sense once upon a time, or maybe they were always a bad idea. But I don’t need to know that in order to establish that homosexuality should be allowed and accepted today. If there really were a fence, with no record of who built it or why, that just seemed to be inconveniencing everyone, we really would be justified in tearing it down. Sometimes 2 + 2 is just 4.
This is not analogous to tearing down laws or social norms so old and complicated that no one could reasonably be expected to know why they were made in the first place.
Is this relevant to a norm whose invention was explicitly documented six years ago?
But I don’t need to know that in order to establish that homosexuality should be allowed and accepted today.
How confident are you that an argument for abolishing a social norm that is thousands of years old that makes no charitable reference to why the norm survived thousands of years is calm, dispassionate, and complete? (I should note this is a general response, and I am entirely uninterested in discussing the specifics of homosexuality in this thread.)
Maybe laws against homosexuality made sense once upon a time, or maybe they were always a bad idea. But I don’t need to know that in order to establish that homosexuality should be allowed and accepted today
“Need to know” is a strong condition, and I probably agree with you that you don’t need to know the relevant history in order to establish that a particular law is a bad idea. But I would also agree that if I’m actually trying to determine whether a law ought to change (rather than trying to justify my pre-existing belief that the law ought to change), trying to understand how the law came to be in the first place seems like a really good place to start.
OrphanWilde,
Welcome to the site! We are glad to have you. But let me tell you a story:
Moving from the story to advice: reading all of this sequence may be helpful. Around a year ago, I mostly gave up discussing politics after finding Less Wrong, and my life is noticeably better. It’s hard to elaborate all of the reasons why- but to start, I find myself less bothered by other people and the world, I find my time much better spent, as I’m reading positive psychology rather than political philosophy, and putting my hope in start-ups rather than political parties.
Instead of testing to see if politics can be discussed on Less Wrong, I suggest an alternate test: see how long you can go without having a political discussion. See what you do with your time and emotional energy instead.
[Meta] I’ve gone long periods of time without having political discussions. My interest in such waxes and wanes, much as my interest in writing poetry, my interest in writing prose, my interest in programming games, my interest in having any contact with other people, etc. I wouldn’t say my life at any point in any of these cycles is better or worse; if it were better, I doubt my interest would wane, if worse, I doubt it would wax.
As for my reasons for introducing this test, it was introduced in response to another individual calling the rule “Stupid,” in rather less polite terms. I decided to create a test to see if the fence was actually useful; I didn’t create an article calling for it to be torn down, I asked the mayor to create a space in that public property without that fence, to see if it did indeed serve the purpose it was erected for. I’ll “conclude” the test sometime tomorrow, and ask people whether, indeed, they found the discussions here constructive or informative. (I’ve already learned one thing, which I’ll elaborate on tomorrow, in my closing poll and commentary. So personally it has already been both constructive and informative.)
I read this response as two distinct things—a reason for not wanting politics discussed here (politics is an unconstructive and unhappy temptation), and a completely unrelated justification (politics is impossible to discuss rationally, a strawman interpretation of the “Politics is the Mindkiller” sequence which some people here nonetheless seem to hold). This post challenges that justification. Your reason may or may not still apply; I will try to include something in the poll to reflect the possibility that people found the test demonstrated that politics can be discussed here, but would still rather this be a politics-free zone.
My strongest recommendations, depending upon the result of this test and the poll, will nonetheless be, as suggested by DanielLC here: http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/dsv/is_politics_the_mindkiller_an_inconclusive_test/73sl a regular and quarantined area for political discussion, subject to a cessation if things turn ugly or particularly unproductive. As I invoked in my introductory post, this is not a true test, because it is a test, and known to be a test. The very act of entering into this test is an acknowledgment that politics are an area of rational vulnerability. That is, my strongest recommendation will be that an area of public property be left without the fence. That will be a longer-term test which will more truly demonstrate whether or not the fence effectively serves the purpose it was created for.
I’ve gone through the same sort of alienation and apathy about politics from reading lesswrong and moldbug, but that actually makes it more FUN for me to discuss politics now that I no longer identify as a blue. The separate discussion as to how much fun conversation there should be on the forums could be interesting, but I would enjoy more of it and I think it’s also somewhat useful to see non-blue and non-green political points made.
Indeed. Policy Debates Should Not Appear One-Sided is my favorite entry in that category, and this is worth keeping in mind as well.
My experiences mirror yours. Without delving into the details, I’ve also given up politics. Doing so has allowed me to focus my energy into activities that make me happier and improve my well-being
I do periodically feel the urge to re-involve myself in politics, though. Addiction is too strong of a word, but maybe it’s compulsion? Sometimes I push through it, ignoring it until in goes away. But other times I re-involve myself. It usually lasts a few days, at least until I realize how miserable it’s making me and I pull myself away.
Regardless of whether politics can/should be discussed on LW, I likely shouldn’t involve myself. Let this be my public per-commitment that I won’t discuss politics on LW.
Also, Vaniver, I enjoy your posts. If you’d ever care to discuss positive psychology, I’d definitely be up for a Skype chat.
Agreed. I have not bothered to inform myself about politics since I was in grade school. I have never followed mainstream news (TV/newspapers/etc), not even occasionally. And my life is much richer for it. I have more time for other pursuits, I’m not angry about things I can’t affect, and I’m not alienated from people with different a political allegiance.
There have been times when I honestly didn’t know who the prime minister of my state was. (I happened to have heard the name of the current one some time ago.) And I’m happy that way. There are so many much more interesting things in the world I can spend my time on! Why should I concern myself with what I would do if I were prime minister? It’s more fun and just as profitable to think of what I would do if I were Superman.
That analogy conflates two things: The fact that the man doesn’t know why the fence is there, and the fact that he doesn’t care. If I were the mayor, I’d dismiss his request simply because he hadn’t done his research. This is not analogous to tearing down laws or social norms so old and complicated that no one could reasonably be expected to know why they were made in the first place. Maybe laws against homosexuality made sense once upon a time, or maybe they were always a bad idea. But I don’t need to know that in order to establish that homosexuality should be allowed and accepted today. If there really were a fence, with no record of who built it or why, that just seemed to be inconveniencing everyone, we really would be justified in tearing it down. Sometimes 2 + 2 is just 4.
Is this relevant to a norm whose invention was explicitly documented six years ago?
How confident are you that an argument for abolishing a social norm that is thousands of years old that makes no charitable reference to why the norm survived thousands of years is calm, dispassionate, and complete? (I should note this is a general response, and I am entirely uninterested in discussing the specifics of homosexuality in this thread.)
“Need to know” is a strong condition, and I probably agree with you that you don’t need to know the relevant history in order to establish that a particular law is a bad idea. But I would also agree that if I’m actually trying to determine whether a law ought to change (rather than trying to justify my pre-existing belief that the law ought to change), trying to understand how the law came to be in the first place seems like a really good place to start.