What made you think the torture hypothetical was a good idea? When I read a math book, I expect to read about math. If the writer insists on using the most horrifying example possible to illustrate their math for no reason at all, that’s extremely rude. Granted, sometimes there might a good reason to mention horrifying things, like if you’re explicitly making a point about scope-insensitive moral intuitions being untrustworthy. But if you’re just doing some ordinary mundane decision theory, you can just say “lose $50,” or “utility −10.” Then your more sensitive readers might actually learn some new math instead of wasting time and energy desperately trying not to ask whether life is worth living for fear that the answer is obviously that it isn’t.
Thank you for the feedback, and sorry for causing you distress! I genuinely did not take into consideration that this choice could cause distress, and it could have occurred to me, and I apologize.
On how I came to think that it might be a good idea (as opposed to missing that it might be a bad idea): While there’s math in this post, the point is really the philosophy rather than the math (whose role is just to help thinking more clearly about the philosophy, e.g. to see that PBDT fails in the same way as NBDT on this example). The original counterfactual mugging was phrased in terms of dollars, and one thing I wondered about in the early discussions was whether thinking in terms of these low stakes made people think differently than they would if something really important was at stake. I’m reconstructing, it’s been a while, but I believe that’s what made me rephrase it in terms of the whole world being at stake. Later, I chose the torture as something that, on a scale I’d reflectively endorse (as opposed, I acknowledge, actual psychology), is much less important than the fate of the world, but still important. But I entirely agree that for the purposes of this post, “paying $1” (any small negative effect) would have made the point just as well.
Had you used small and large numbers instead of the terms torture and dust specks, the whole post would have been trivial. I learned a fair bit about my own thinking in the aftermath of reading that infamous post, and I suspect I am not the only one. I even intentionally used politically charged terms in my own post.
Username explicitly linked to torture vs. dust specks as a case where it makes sense to use torture as an example. Username is just objecting to using torture for general decision theory examples where there’s no particular reason to use that example.
That doesn’t change the fact that there is no reason to involve torture in this thought experiment. (or most of the thought experiments we put it in)
I think as a general rule, we should try to frame problems into positive utility as opposed to negative utility, unless we have a reason not to.
One reason for this is that people feel guilt for participating in a thought experiment where they have to choose between two bad things, and they do not feel the same guilt for choosing between two good things. Another is that people might have a feeling like they have a moral obligation to avoid certain bad scenarios no matter what, and this might interfere with their ability to compare them to other things rationally. I do not think that people often have the same feeling of moral obligation to irrationally always seek a certain good scenario.
(I’m posting this comment under this public throwaway account for emotional reasons.)
What made you think the torture hypothetical was a good idea? When I read a math book, I expect to read about math. If the writer insists on using the most horrifying example possible to illustrate their math for no reason at all, that’s extremely rude. Granted, sometimes there might a good reason to mention horrifying things, like if you’re explicitly making a point about scope-insensitive moral intuitions being untrustworthy. But if you’re just doing some ordinary mundane decision theory, you can just say “lose $50,” or “utility −10.” Then your more sensitive readers might actually learn some new math instead of wasting time and energy desperately trying not to ask whether life is worth living for fear that the answer is obviously that it isn’t.
Thank you for the feedback, and sorry for causing you distress! I genuinely did not take into consideration that this choice could cause distress, and it could have occurred to me, and I apologize.
On how I came to think that it might be a good idea (as opposed to missing that it might be a bad idea): While there’s math in this post, the point is really the philosophy rather than the math (whose role is just to help thinking more clearly about the philosophy, e.g. to see that PBDT fails in the same way as NBDT on this example). The original counterfactual mugging was phrased in terms of dollars, and one thing I wondered about in the early discussions was whether thinking in terms of these low stakes made people think differently than they would if something really important was at stake. I’m reconstructing, it’s been a while, but I believe that’s what made me rephrase it in terms of the whole world being at stake. Later, I chose the torture as something that, on a scale I’d reflectively endorse (as opposed, I acknowledge, actual psychology), is much less important than the fate of the world, but still important. But I entirely agree that for the purposes of this post, “paying $1” (any small negative effect) would have made the point just as well.
Yes, I now regret making this mistake at the dawn of the site and regret more having sneezed the mistake onto other people.
Had you used small and large numbers instead of the terms torture and dust specks, the whole post would have been trivial. I learned a fair bit about my own thinking in the aftermath of reading that infamous post, and I suspect I am not the only one. I even intentionally used politically charged terms in my own post.
Username explicitly linked to torture vs. dust specks as a case where it makes sense to use torture as an example. Username is just objecting to using torture for general decision theory examples where there’s no particular reason to use that example.
If hypothetical torture is a trigger for you, you are probably reading a wrong site.
That doesn’t change the fact that there is no reason to involve torture in this thought experiment. (or most of the thought experiments we put it in)
I think as a general rule, we should try to frame problems into positive utility as opposed to negative utility, unless we have a reason not to.
One reason for this is that people feel guilt for participating in a thought experiment where they have to choose between two bad things, and they do not feel the same guilt for choosing between two good things. Another is that people might have a feeling like they have a moral obligation to avoid certain bad scenarios no matter what, and this might interfere with their ability to compare them to other things rationally. I do not think that people often have the same feeling of moral obligation to irrationally always seek a certain good scenario.
Probably.